clearance Class B
 

You get an IFR clearance to an airport that lies under a class B shelf. Your route and filed initial altitude would take you through the B airspace.

Is your initial clearance, also clearance to enter the B airspace?

Yes, your clearance that you recieve is just that, a clearance, as long as you comply with that you are OK. No need for another clearance to enter class B.

One of the things that gets you cleared into B is having a clearance that puts you into it. For example... headings or altitudes. So to recap, you wont hear cleared into B if you are getting vectors through it.

I departed EWR years ago VFR. EWR is a class B airport, they switched me to LGA's ATC and they said "remain clear of class B". I said I'm already in it and my clearance for takeoff from class B is a class B clearance. They said to descend below class B. I did, but I thought that was funny. I was never out of class B. :rolleyes:

Under IFR, yes. You do not need specific clearance into the B while IFR...if your cleared route or vectors take you there, that is an implied clearance.

Under VFR, you MUST hear the magic words "cleared into the LAX class B airspace" prior to entering.

IFR, yes.

VFR, no, you need to hear the magic words..

+1, went into Las Vegas class B yesterday VFR. Received vectors and altitude assignments going into North Las Vegas airport. Never heard "Cleared through the Las Vegas class B airspace."

IFR, you get a clearance and if you go through it, you're already cleared. Although, PHX Tracon gave me a crossing restriction once going into SDL that kept me out of the Bravo.

I just notices that the poster says he's instrument rated. Is it me or are these two questions surprisingly basic for someone who already has the rating?

That's not uncommon in SOCAL either. However...the specific B clearance is legally required. If you don't get it on tape and the controller screws up his separation with an airliner...they will come looking for him. At that point he has an easy out...YOU were not cleared into the B. Even if ATC gives a heading and ALT that will take you into B, you are not supposed to enter until you get the B clearance.

I have a buddy at SOCAL...he said some controllers just skip the clearance because they are busy or lazy. Others deliberately omit it to give themselves an out if some confused PPL creates a separation problem.

If you fly VFR into B, better get it on tape if you are a professional.

IFR, it is implied.

yeah, they are kinda basic noygonnadoit.

I understand what Rickair is saying. With vectors or clearances, IFR the class B clearance is implied. Again use the example in my original post. You are cleared to an airport underlying class B airpspace. Your original clearance on the ground was a route and altitude that does not penetrate class B. During the flight ATC assigns you a higher altitude that will put you into the class B. If i understand their is no need for a class B clearance because the assigned altitude was the clearance.

Assigned, Vectored, Expected-Filed

If your filed IFR plan routing goes through the Bravo, and you are cleared to destination as filed, then you can go through the Bravo. If you went NORDO five minutes after takeoff and there was no suitable/reasonable place you could go VFR, then you could go to destination, even if it required an alternate, being NORDO, you could still proceed to destination as long as it was legal to file in the first place.

While I completely agree with you, I am having trouble finding documentation that this is correct (guess I've been out of the CFI thing too long). As far as my 5 minutes of research went, both the FAR and AIM say that a pilot must receive an ATC clearance before entering Class B. As far as I interpret that, "maintain 5000" or "fly heading 230" would be instructions, not a clearance.

However, would "Cleared direct ABC VOR" work, where ABC VOR is on the field? Would ATC even be able to clear a VFR airplane to a fix or would that necessitate an IFR clearance as far as ATC is concerned?

No, it's much, much simpler than that.

When you are IFR, you are on a clearance the entire time you are in controlled airspace. Class E, D, C, B or A. Doesn't matter what airspace. You are on a clearance.

Compare that to VFR flight. There are no such things as airspace clearances for VFR flight in controlled airspace (except maybe "special" VFR) - even Class C is just a communication requirement - with one exception: Class B.

Flight in Class B requires a clearance. The difference between VFR and IFR is simply that VFR you don't have one until they give it to you. IFR you have one all the time you are in controlled airspace (unless of course your whole flight is illegal),

I think you are right that ATC won't use "cleared" in the VFR context except for Class B clearances. Even "cleared for the approach" during practice approaches under VFR is probably a misnomer with "practice approach approved" probably the more technically correct language.

"Fly heading 230; maintain 5000" is a little grayer as is the practical distinction between clearance and instruction since 91.123(b) tells us we're not supposed to disobey an ATC instruction, although (that can be the subject of a whole thread all by itself).

Maybe there are VFR contexts in which "Cleared into the Class B" is not technically required. Maybe not. But it doesn't take much extra brainpower or airtime to query ATC, "confirm N1234X is cleared into Class B" and be certain.

Thanks Noygonnadoit. I think since private the whole "cleared into the bravo airspace" phrase/concept was drilled into my head. What I missed is that you dont nessasarily need a specific clearence such as "cleared into the bravo" to enter the class B. What is important is that you have a clearance. If VFR, that comes as "cleared into the bravo" If IFR it is your initial clearance. Thanks that makes since :0)

Flying into Class B airspace frequently when instructing, I've come to understand that a vector by the controller into the airspace (or a climb into it, as well) constitutes a clearance into the Bravo airspace. The specific verbiage "Cleared into Class B airspace" is usually issued when you are given instructions that may or may not take you into the airspace.

For example, transitioning through or near to Bravo airspace and/or told to "proceed on course," that would be a case where they would need to specifically clear you into the airspace (e.g., "Cleared into Class B airspace"). If you were given a vector or altitude to fly that does take you into it, IFR or VFR, that constitutes your clearance into the airspace. FAR 91.131(a)(1) states a pilot must have an ATC clearance, which is accomplished even by a vector/altitude assignment by the authorized facility.

I think this is very specific to the particular Class B you are in. I've heard of some where the controllers don't want to be bothered with the extra 4 words). But I also fly and teach in Class B (or just under it) frequently and, even when providing heading and altitude vectors for practice approaches under VFR, we get "Cleared into the Class B."

It may in fact be difficult to sustain a violation against a pilot who has been given a specific instruction - both altitude and heading that takes her into the Class B.

I've also had the experience of being transferred to a another controller who did not know I was cleared into the B can asked what I was doing there. Nice to know "cleared into the Class B" is on the tape.

Magic words? Maybe not? Maybe you can be cleared for an approach when IFR, receive an IFR route clearance, cleared for takeoff of landing at a towered airport without hearing the magic word "cleared". I don't think you can but maybe...

Maybe there are instructions ATC can give you that will substitute for a VFR Class B clearance. Personally I think that "cleared" is a very specific word with a very specific meaning and I'd much, much prefer to know that I have been "cleared" to do something that requires a clearance than think I have been cleared.

Is it so very difficult to say "Confirm N1234X is cleared into the Bravo" that we'd rather guess?

If I don't hear "cleared" I assume I'm not.

I assume that a VFR pilot who was given heading and altitude assignments which put him IMMEDIATELY into the B could make a good case that clearance was implied...ie, cruising below B at 3500 and instructed to climb to 4500 where the B starts at 4000.

However, the same VFR pilot who was given vectors say 15 miles away and then was handed off prior to entering would probably not fare as well.

Ultimately a vector/altitude is not a clearance. You get headings and altitudes under VFR flight following, but you do not have a clearance then either.

Does "report two mile final for runway xx" imply a landing clearance? I know I am going to land. The controller knows where I am, but I am not cleared to land. I think the same logic can be said with a vector or altitude direction from ATC. It is up to the PIC to maintain situational awareness as to the boundary's of Bravo. If you feel you are going to enter it and have not received the clearance just ask. That way you are not on the hook if the controller messed up.

When I was in college and a mere private pilot, I managed to get into STL twice for a touch and go. Both times, I was never told "clear to enter...." Instead I was given a vector and a runway assignment. When I asked for a clearance to enter, the controller informed me that when given a vector and a runway assignment, I am cleared to enter. I said "Sir, I am a new private pilot and I need to hear you tell me I am clear to enter." He laughed and cleared me in. The second time, you could hear the disgust in the guy's voice as he cleared me. Like I was missing something!

One time on a XC in a Seminole, approach offered to let us transition the STL class B on our way to KC. We accepted and they did tell us we were clear to enter that one time. Lesson is, be sure you ask for your clearance just to cover your butt if they don't give you a clearance. That includes even when you know you are cleared in (aka, vector and runway assignment).

OTOH, we were doing practice approaches in the Denver area. We had just done our first approach (vectored) and were on the miss out of FTG with both heading and altitude instructions that would take us back up into the Bravo without the magic words (we were below it on the first approach). "Denver Approach, confirm 34X is cleared into the Bravo" resulted in, "Oh yeah, I guess you need that. Sorry."

Another: We were on the ground at KDEN for a fly-in meeting. Must've been a good dozen or so pistons, mostly light singles. As we left, each of us, in turn, as part of our VFR departure clearances, were told, "Cleared into the Class B airspace" even though on the ground at the Class B primary.

So I guess you story about St Louis tells us that either some controllers do a lot of unnecessary extra work or other controllers get "disgusted" just doing their job.I agree with your ultimate lesson. ATC is taught that "VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace." (ATC Handbook, 7-9-2(a)) I'm really not aware of what word other than "cleared" means "cleared" and will ask for it.

These last few posts have been absolutely fantastic. I'm glad there's some good, safe know-how out there, and you guys are sharing it! You always need your clearance, Clarence, but vectors don't count Victor!