Bad at checkrides...advice?
 

Seriously, what the ****** is wrong with me? I study like hell and do my best in the cockpit to get knowledge tests in the upper 90's and go through oral exams very well, and yet, when it comes to doing the flight portion of the checkride, I somehow manage to make one small error and bust it-in fact, five errors.

DEs and an FAA fed have told me I am a exceptionally well pilot, and know how to fly the airplane, and I have been told by them and others that I am extrememly intelligent-to the point of even getting a DE and FAA fed on things they didn't know.

However, I busted the private on going outside of tolerances on a power-on stall, was successfully distracted on the multi and forgot to do the gear check one more time, busted the CFI oral after 8 hours (mind basically melted), CFII oral on a scenario I have never been taught, seen, or even heard of (joining a DME arc...not off of a IAF or lead radial), and now, the CFII flight, because I forgot to press the "OBS" button on the Garmin GNS430 when I was doing a GPS hold (so the GPS cycled to the IF, instead of remaining in the hold, an I couldn't for the love of me fix it).

My flight instructors (past and present) have said that I overthink/think too complex, and possibly get nervous on checkrides...which I try my hardest not too do. Any advice? I have been told (and read on here) to brush failures off and learn from them, but seriously, 5 ******ing failures?...who'd want to hire me...

First off, NO ONE should sit for an 8hr oral. I couldn't talk for 8hrs much less answer questions for 8hrs. For all my checks and giving checks, no oral over about 2hrs and that was with a true dipstick who wanted to show me how much HE knew.

The other non-standards seem to indicate workload problems. ie.. getting so involved in the moment that the next step is missed. Pacing and workload are very important.

I assume you are mentally flying these sorties before going to the airplane, right?

You might be a legit case of checkride-itis.

Since you probably have good piloting skills, here's an idea to deal with that: find an examiner who will give you the plan for the entire checkride on the ground and let YOU execute it in flight. Then you should try to ignore him and just conduct the flight. That way you're not getting distracted trying to interact with the examiner.

This worked for some non-aviation military training I used to do, haven't tried it in aviation.

Couple observations...I'll bet you aren't busting checkrides for making "one small error". Perhaps a more honest of your performance is in order? In my experience, the error that ends a checkride is not the first/only error made on the ride...usually, there are a multitude of errors that have occurred during the process...the applicant merely siezes on the last error made and determines that "small error" is what caused the bust.

Second, a point of common sense in test taking, stop "getting a DE and FAA fed on things they didn't know". Showing someone up who is in the position of evaluating you just isn't wise.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Remember every examiners job out there is to teach the student. I've seen students do well on the oral and become almost pompous about it because the examiner can't stump them. Thats fine but make sure there is that line of authority. Some examiners are high on their horse and don't like that authority compromised. Be modest in the oral exam and make darn sure your flying is stone cold better than PTS. If your instructor is good, they will know when your ready. I knew a guy that failed 8 checkrides and now works a corporate flying job in beech 19's. You'll get hired somewhere..

Thanks everyone for the advice, I really appreciate it.

My flight portion of the checkride, which I passed no problem, was 3 hours long. Two DEs that I know of said that they have never even heard of a CFI initial ride being that long...and I was better than PTS standards and was doing everything good, even the FAA fed that gave it to me said that it was a good checkride. Maybe strung it out hoping he'd bust me on something, I don't know, but I am still talked about around the school.

I had that problem early on, and will once in a while I occasionally reach my limit...which is always under IFR, trying to copy an ATC clearance, intercept a course (worse, ILS), trying to "teach" what is going on, checklist, etc. As for mentally doing these sorties before going in the airplane, I do as best as I can, though like on my CFII, I was made aware of the approaches we'd be doing about 15 minutes prior to departure, so I did as best as I could at mentally flying them.

Thanks for the advice, maybe I can bring this up on my recheck.

My flying is good, other than a very occasional PTS deviation, which I detect and correct immediately (like heading 15 degrees off, or altitude will stray beyond 100ft). When these things do happen, its almost always due to some distraction, which I have successfully reduced.

As far as showing a DE and FAA fed up...I don't do that, or even try to (I just hope I don't come across that way, either). I just simply tell what I know, though I do have a slight controvery over this; do I say something that is correct but can dig a hole, or do I just say the common answer and see what happens? Example, I was asked on my CFII how many NOTAMs there are. I have always been told/taught from multiple CFIs that there are two, FDC notams, and distant notams (NOTAM L too, but those are gone now). Actually, I know from studying the AIM, that there are four. The DE that did my CFII is extremely smart, and gives amazing advice, afterall, he's been a CFI for 30+ years. When I told him 4 (again, trying to explain what I know), he looked that the AIM, and was like, "wow, you got me." But understood, I wouldn't want to talk back to someone with authority, definately not wise.

Thanks for the advice. I always learn something on checkrides, and definelty like that aspect of them. As far as I know, I fly within the PTS standards, even better at times, other than as I explained above, the rare instance where I deviate, but always correct it.

I'm sorry that some of my comments may seem harsh, I'm torn on your situation. It sounds to me like you may be trying too hard to prove how good you are, that generally doesn't bode well. I also detect a feeling of arrogance or superiority, again that tends not to fly well on checkride. Confident but not arrogant is a thin line we walk.
I think you probably will be able to get a job even with the checkride failures when jobs become available again, however you need to make sure you frame those failures the right way. You didn't fail for one little thing, you failed for a combination of things most interviewers would know that. I recommend you try to characterize that as, "here's what I learned from that failure... in your GPS example... " but hey I'll never forget to use the OBS key again... and I learned how to reprogram the GPS faster than you'd believe"
Aviation as an industry is big on ownership, as long as you take ownership of your failures and don't try to blame it on someone else you'll do much better.

Completely agree. Again, don't take offense StudentFlyer, but I can relate to your position. When I started my PPL training, I thought pretty highly of my piloting abilities...I had been flying simulators since I was 4, landed on my first flight of training, held altitude and heading nearly "perfectly," as I'd like to have thought, etc. My CFI recognized what this probably meant for my ego and whipped me into shape stat. He made me respect aviation and always challenged me, forcing all the arrogance out of my system and replacing it with curiosity, respect, and a healthy regard for procedures and checklists.

It seems like this is what you need to do. You say that you are an outstanding pilot...but, you have failed 5 checkrides. What you are doing clearly isn't working. Messing up basic stuff, like not hitting the OBS button, shows a lack in fundamental airmanship. Open your mind up to improving yourself. Just because DEs and the FAA think you are a good pilot doesn't give you the right to massage your ego or think there's nothing you can do better - as one CFI told me, "you can't propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back." You're screwing basic stuff up - stuff that simply slowing down and following procedures could fix. Aviation is really pretty simple, but people make it a lot harder and more complicated than it needs to be.

Stop sulking and trying to prove to other people that you are a good pilot, and start being that good pilot you wish you could be. You will notice the outstanding improvement in your abilities...I know that I did.

Let us know how it goes! Good luck, blue skies, and calm winds.

Extremely

DEs, as well as an FAA pilot, have told me I am an exceptional pilot. I know how to fly the airplane. I have been told that I am extremely intelligent, to the point of getting DE's and the FAA pilot on things they didn't know.

~shdw

...wow shdw

Thanks Blueskies21 and Planespotta... I appreciate the input.

Blueskies, on the "I'm still talked about in school" comment, I am meaning about how long my CFI checkride was, in that I am still talked about how long it was, and how I got grilled.

So to sum it up, I need to take positive criticism lightly, and definitely tighten up on myself as far as "being all that I could be" (striving for that improvement). Although not my intention, there seems to be a consensus on here that I come across as being arrogant and having a feeling of superiority. Some ways I can fix that are on orals, answer the common answer, and just accept the fact that I am not "that good enough," and know that there is always room to improve. Anything else that I could do? Thanks again for your input.

Thanks again, and while you guys seem worried that your criticisms may be harsh, I'm not bothered, I accept them as reasons for improvement.

shdw: this is a forum, not an English class. I am here for advice on how to fix my habit of busting checkrides, and as it has expanded, fix some fundamentals of my attitude and flying skills. You provided absolutely no advice, to what I can do, so please don't post here at all (ironic that someone else is blatantly being arrogant). If I really wanted to be arrogant-I could point out flaws in your "this is how it should be done" post, but will not, as I need to work on not trying to seem very good, thanks to this thread.

Well for starters, your first two paragraphs tell me a lot about you, which I think others have pointed out and I completely agree. There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance, and your are far past the line. If you notice, no one really feels the need to be "What the F--ity F'n F'r" etc....

I have a feeling you started very young(And I'm guessing your maybe 18-20?) and had a nice advantage because of this, but if you are going to teach people to fly, you need to park that immature attitude in the closet and treat things seriously. Now I'm not saying don't have fun, because having fun and enjoying a job is the essence of how I operate. With that said, I also know when it's time to get serious with the task at hand when required, it's a fine balance that you can develope over time.

Finally, I do wish you luck in the future, and hope things work themselves out. Sometimes it just takes looking at yourself through other people's eyes

re:
 

Just to confirm with some examples of checkride length...

Most of the Instructors I know, myself included, had intial CFI practical tests lasting anywhere from 6 to 10 hours, including the flight.

Mine in particular, was about 7 hours ground and about 1.7 hour flight time.

Of course, I failed mine halfway through when I became arrogant, and thought I could whip up a lesson plan without once referencing the PTS. Big mistake and one I frequently tell students as a lesson in arrogance.

Don't write down a list of what you have to do to improve - this is characteristic of a Type-A, high-strung, desperate-to-prove-themselves individual. When you feel yourself slipping into that old, faulted attitude, just recognize it and fix it until it's forced out of your system. You will never be able to write a list long enough to cut out every single attitude problem (nobody ever will), but the very least you can do is realize when things are starting to go wrong and then fix them.

Strive for improvement, but don't THINK about striving for improvement - just let it come from a desire within you. I know it sounds cheesy, but it's the truth. You can't imagine yourself doing something well and do it well at the same time; look at the performance of athletes, experienced aviators, etc., and you'll see it comes from a special type of mental/muscle memory. They don't think; they just do. That's the level of performance everyone should strive for. Don't think of a flight as a chance to prove yourself, but rather an opportunity to BETTER yourself.

How do you get to this level? You gotta challenge yourself. How will you know you're being challenged? You'll know you're being challenged because you'll feel it - it won't feel like just another run-of-the-mill flight or another ILS. You will feel your brain working. Challenging yourself induces humility, learning, and legitimately improves your skills. You WILL become a better pilot - that pilot you used to imagine you were.

Ewfflyer Understood. You'd probably think I was lying if I said that I rarely swear, so when I do, there is meaning to it. At the time of writing my post, I was pretty angry at myself-and to a degree, still am, but will say starting this thread asking for advice on how to improve myself was one of the best things I have done for my life. I got kinda tired of being patted on the shoulder and being told, "don't be so hard on yourself, stuff happens." But I felt I needed to find out what is going wrong, and stop busting checkrides. Although a CFI, I have not taught anyone yet, but want to strive to be a good instructor...all the advice on here will help

Yes sir, 22 in fact. Like most other pilots I know of, I got the "bug" ( :) ) when I was a toddler, started flying in middle school, finally got my private when I was 18.

pilot1278
Thank you for the advice, will take to heart

Planespotta
Thanks for the advice. I will take to heart what everyone has said on here, and will let you guys know of passing my CFII checkride, and finally, my MEI checkride.

StudentFlyer, I was merely mimicking. :cool:


For serious advice:

Get your head in the books, read, reread, and take side notes. Yes, write notes in the book. Make note cards and study your butt off. I am not saying you are ill prepared, or were. However, being overly prepared can boost your confidence.

Answer what you are asked. Repeatedly providing additional information can makes you look arrogant and, if you make a false comment in your ramble, can burry you. If you chose to give more information, do so with extreme caution.

Dress like you are applying for a job. Dressing professionally might make you act differently. At least khaki pants and a collared shirt. A full suit, on a hot summer day, is a bit over the top.

For additional study sources go to our thread on that. Many wonderful books on aviation were posted there last week, I believe. Even if you have read them, reread them. It will help.

Thanks shdw. I do all the stuff you said to do in your post, but will look into the book suggestion. In addition, I do have a tendency to provide additional information, which I know I have been told I think too complex and explain things too complex, which has buried me on my oral busts.

As for the flights, I need to find away to fly better, but also not to make a "fatal error," such as failing to do a final gear check or failing to press the "OBS" button to suspend a hold.

Again, thanks for you input.

Chair Flying
 

[quote=StudentFlyer;783478]Seriously, what the ****** is wrong with me? I study like hell and do my best in the cockpit to get knowledge tests in the upper 90's and go through oral exams very well, and yet, when it comes to doing the flight portion of the checkride, I somehow manage to make one small error and bust it-in fact, five errors.

DEs and an FAA fed have told me I am a exceptionally well pilot, and know how to fly the airplane, and I have been told by them and others that I am extrememly intelligent-to the point of even getting a DE and FAA fed on things they didn't know.

However, I busted the private on going outside of tolerances on a power-on stall, was successfully distracted on the multi and forgot to do the gear check one more time, busted the CFI oral after 8 hours (mind basically melted), CFII oral on a scenario I have never been taught, seen, or even heard of (joining a DME arc...not off of a IAF or lead radial), and now, the CFII flight, because I forgot to press the "OBS" button on the Garmin GNS430 when I was doing a GPS hold (so the GPS cycled to the IF, instead of remaining in the hold, an I couldn't for the love of me fix it).
[quote]

Just a quick comment or two StudentFlyer.

There are enough pilots who get "checkride itis" out there to fill several wide body aircraft on any given day. It happens to everyone to one degree or another. A couple of the suggestions offered so far should help.

Having been a sim instructor for years for a Part 121 major carrier, there are several things I find helpful in preparing for a checkride. You should have some idea of what is going to be expected on the ride. If not, ask your instructor or examiner. The examiner may not give you the exact sequence but you'll have a good idea of what to expect. Do some "chair flying" before the ride, somewhere where you can talk to yourself. Think through every maneuver and talk yourself through it, out loud, as you perform the maneuver sitting in a chair. Do it until it's automatic.

If you make a mistake, forget about it. Everyone makes errors and one mistake does not bust a checkride. Put it behind you and move on !

As for oral exams, I've given more than I care to think about and most examiners can tell within the first 15 minutes how prepared an applicant is. I've never heard of any oral lasting 8 hours. Either you kept digging holes, the examiner didn't know how to give an oral or you've exaggerated this statement. In any case, it would be over in two at the maximum; pass or fail.

Several comments suggest that perhaps you need to do "some evaluations". You make excuses and seem to blame other factors for your inadequacies and failures. That also shows up very quickly on an oral and especially a check ride. Your comment about "getting a DE or FAA fed on things they didn't know" has been addressed but it's the quickest way to a pink slip or a very long afternoon. Don't go there ! Even if the examiner makes a mistake, bite your tongue and move on.

You pat yourself on the back for being a good pilot and you probably are. Prepare yourself for the flight checks and you'll do well. BTW, ditch "the language" and the attitude. You'll be better off for it. Oh, learn how to intercept the DME arc from anywhere. It's part of many company PC and recurrent training checks.

G'Luck Mate:)

I have never understood the "dress up" for a checkride thing. As a result, I've never done it. I think it is much more important to be comfortable. If a shirt is what adjusts your attitude then the shirt isn't the problem, it's you're attitude. I'm not recommending that anyone take a checkride in ratty jeans and a ripped shirt but anything more than a polo shirt and a nice pair of pants is over kill in my opinion. Hell, I've never even taken a ride without my hat.

To the OP it sounds to me like you're trying too hard and getting ahead of yourself. I teach my students this mantra: "Fast is slow, slow is smooth, smooth is fast". Basically if you rush through then you'll be starting again. If you take your time and do it correctly then you'll get done with time to spare and a lot less stomach acid.

You are correct in that your appearance shouldn't dictate pass/fail and your attitude. Where it does come into play is the first impression with the examininer especially if you have not met them before. This in addition to being appropiately prepared: logbooks ready to go, FTN #s, and x-c laid out says to the examiner quite a bit about you.

Does it make the checkride any easier or harder? Probably not but it does start off on the right foot, making that inevitable minor mistake easier to swallow. Buisness casual is what I have my students utilize as a dress code min. You may want to go buisness formal with the FAA for the CFI intial because they get a hard-on for that kind of stuff.

Again, that all seems like a for-naught answer. The examiners don't care what you look like, really. How many of them show up in a tie? In fact, every examiner I've ever had showed up in jeans. My experience is that most people who champion the wearing of button downs and ties went to a flight academy and took very little time getting to know the person they were taking the ride with or who they were sending their students to.

The examiner knows just from talking to the student for 15 minutes how the ride is going to go. If your examiner is sitting on the john reading GQ then I'd probably find another one.

Think of it like a police interrogation. Do you really want to teach him how you shot the guy when all he asked for was your name? :rolleyes:

Esa17: First impressions are always good. Granted if you walk in in a suit with papers all over versus torn apart jeans and a manila folder with all of your briefing information organized, dress doesn't matter. However, dressing up, comfortably mind you, is one way to look organized even from a distance.

I did say this, " At least khaki pants and a collared shirt." I don't think khaki's and a collared shirt is too much to ask or too uncomfortable. However, I went suit, tie, and jacket to the FAA ride from my flight instructor certification as well as for my commercial multi/single.

Dressing up shouldn't change who you are. For some though, it does have a positive impact on their attitude. In my case I feel as though what I am doing is of more importance and I don't find it uncomfortable or a hassle to put on some nice cloths.

Just IMO of course.

A suit would be overkill here in the South. Most people would sweat through a white shirt in no time and then they're no better off than wearing a ratty shirt. Examiners know you are nervous without seeing your pitstains. That said, I always wore a shirt and tie to my rides. Now I have to wear a tie when I'm flying so I look at it as preparation.

I always wanted to see my student wearing slacks, decent shoes and at least a polo on their checkrides. If being a professional pilot is your goal, dress for the job. Doesn't mean you need a monkey suit, just use some common sense.

Just for clarification when I refered to not knowing the examiner, that was in reference to the applicant not knowing the examiner. I do try to spend some time chatting with the examiners that I use and have a good sense of their likes/dislikes. Especially because I've taken a few rides personally with them myself.

I feel this kind of attire sets a good tone for the check rides.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2407/...471269d8ea.jpg

Thanks everyone...I took the advice, and have passed my CFI-I retest. Will keep for the future.

I commend you with continuing to push forward through your career through all of that. Some people would have given up due to their frustration and doubt.

Yay!
 

Well done!

I got here too late to add a couple of items of advice. I'm not as far along as you (I only have instrument, commercial AMEL, ASEL, and glider) but I learned that...

• The examiner can always find a reason to fail us because nobody flies perfectly. Our job is to not give him one. Aceing the oral, having all your docs ready, filling out the form properly are a good way to start. In a nutshell, help the guy feel comfortable that making you a commercial/instructor/whatever is not going to come back to haunt him.
• I've found that examiners always cut me a little slack if I briefly exceed a PTS standard, on the theory that "it's ok to be wrong, but it's not ok to stay wrong."
• I have found it useful to buy a few seconds of "thinking time" before attempting some maneuvers. There are a couple of ways to do that that worked for me. One is to say "Tell you what...I'd like to do another clearing turn first before the Vmc demo." I can do that clearing turn while my mind goes through how I'm going to perform the Vmc demo. What's he going to do, say "no?"
• Another way, if you just need a little thinking time, is to say "Let me get a little sip of water," and reach for your bottle. Again, it's a good way to prepare yourself.

Again, congratulations.

Regards,
BB

Congrats, and I seriously do mean good luck to you and everyone else I reply to and hopefully give "sound" advice.

I think there's quite a bit of folks like me that hope we make a positive influence on others and help create a safer and more professional environment in our world of aviation.

I think your instructors may be right. Remember, most examiners just want to see that your safe. And in the 4 check rides I've taken the examiner always taught me something. That's my 2 cents.