Filing IFR to an airport not on the chart
 

I got my IFR ticket at Western Michigan University 2 weeks ago in a SR20 and did my 1st solo IFR flight last Saturday to a pancake breakfast in a C172. I have another pancake breakfast May 29th at the Plainwell airport in Michigan (ID is 61D, look it up SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts or airnav.com) and I want to file IFR there too just so that I can get experience in the IFR system, but on my low enroute chart it doesn't show up on the chart.

My question is: Can I file IFR to an airport w/ no instrument approaches that is not shown on the chart? (I'm assuming I could file to it but would just have to list an alternate w/ a instrument approach even in severe VFR conditions since that's what the FAR's say to do for a airport listed on the chart w/ no published approaches)

Am I right in that assumption and if not what would the proper procedure be? The flight will be from BEH > 61D and then back.

It's been a long time since I've done this but you should be able to. Your last point should be to exit the airway at an intersection or navaid. You'll need VMC at the MEA or the controllers MVA. Your other option would be to file to the closest airport with an approach, breakout, then fly VFR to the desired field, wx permitting. I know option 2 is legal. Can't remember if I'm covering all the particulars about option one.

If the weather is VMC, why go through the hassle of filing IFR (especially to an uncontrolled airport)?

Also, out of curiosity, why rent out of BEH when AZO and 35D have rentals available, without the hour and a half drive?

I appalud you getting experience outside of wmu, too many of our students don't take advantage of the opportunity to get real world experience.

Pretty much what everybody else said.... you don't need an alternate that I'm aware of (sorry, don't have the regs in front of me), but you'll need the weather to get in, obviously.

If the airport is in class G, of course, you can use the rules to operate in IMC there, but that has the obvious perils.

One addition I'll add is that if this is truly a small, uncharted airport, file it as a Lat/Long, example:

ABC.v123.podunk..3300/12250

Then in the remarks, put 3300/12250 is Big City Airport. Remember, airways have to end somewhere, so use an intersection or VOR somewhere (my example is "podunk" intersection).


You could also file it as a radial/DME of a nearby VOR.

ABC.v123.podunk..ABC270030

Then put ABC270030 is Big City Airport again in the remarks.

The controllers might not know about this airport, so that will at least give them an idea where it is, and the center computers can process these two examples... lat/long in that exact format: 1234/12345. That degrees and minutes only. No decimals of minutes, and no seconds.

Same for the radial / DME. Exact format. ABC123030 where ABC is the VOR, 123 is the radial, and 030 is the distance.

Lots of IFR flying is done that doesn't end at an ILS.

Tony
Formerly Oakland Center, SoCal Approach, and Camarillo Tower

I'm assuming you have some affiliation w/ WMU due to the way you worded the last part of your message. As i'm sure you know WMU's SR20's are top of the line with all the avionics (R9 transition!) but I want to try and get into the a/c ferrying business before I try for a airline/corporate flight job. If I'm successful in that endeavor then I wont always get a glass cockpit gps equipped a/c, so I'm using this basic C172 to get that experience starting in VFR wx then moving into Marginal VFR then actual IFR WX. I just want more confidence in the system (I only did 2 flights at WMU on an IFR flightplan and both were in VFR) so that's why I file IFR now whenever I fly the C172.

I live near BEH (got my private licence there in a flying clubs C172 and am still a member) My whole freshman year I commuted from the BEH area to AZO or BTL as classes required. I could do the drive one way in a hour and at the end of the year actually saved $2500 since I didnt have to pay for a dorm! I still rent from my flying club at BEH because I cant find a decent plane in the area that rents at $80 and hour wet tach time :)

I got asked that question on my IFR checkride oral, if your destination doesn't have a approved instrument approach you must file an alternate with a IAP even in severe VFR wx. :)

Thanks for your reply! That make sense. I guess the worse that could happen if I file that way and the controller doesn't like it it that I wont hear "cleared as filed" :)

And I wont fly actual IFR in class G, imo its stupid and too risky when just above you there's a friendly controller sipping coffee in front of his radar :)

What airport are you coming from?

FAA Identifier: 61D

Lat/Long: 4228/08539


VOR radial/distance VOR name

AZO344015 KALAMAZOO
BTL300020 BATTLE CREEK
PMM090020 PULLMAN
GRR203020 GRAND RAPIDS
ELX047029 KEELER

I'm flying from BEH. How would this look? ELX V116 AZO AZO344015

Ok, well, that's not true everywhere. Out west in the mountain states, radar might be up in the flight levels, so if you don't do class G, you might not get in.

Of course, I would never suggest that if you're not IMTIMATELY familiar with the terrain and obstacles. There are still non radar approach controls (Helena, Montana, Idaho Falls, Idiaho, etc).

Your right, currently being a pilot in the flat lands I often don't think about the mountain states ;)

or just PMM and whatever that radial / DME is (looks like 091 radial to some intersection that begins with an O). That might keep you out of the AZO airspace (that looks busier than the PMM route).

Remember, when you file this way, the clearance guy/gal at will probably ask where you're "really" going. Just tell 'em you'll cancel at the clearance limit of AZO344015 and continue VFR.

Good luck.

61D doesn't show on the IFR the chart, however it is a charted airport. That's worth noting, because you can file a flight plan to it without getting into coordinates or radial/distance. Just because it's a "VFR Only" airport doesn't mean that you can't operate IFR to/from the field. The only time that you really need to file coordinates is when you want to go somewhere that isn't in the national airspace computer system. (Private fields or uncharted locations, such as a lake if you're flying a floatplane)

File from your origin via whatever routing (direct, airways, vectors, PFM... your choice) to an intersection, airport or navaid nearby, then direct to your destination. In this case, I would file:

Origin...whatever is necessary to get to V170...V170...OSEGO..61D. File an airport with an instrument approach as the alternate. (The reason that you file the alternate is for lost comm procedures if you are actual IMC when you arrive at 61D and can't land visually or cancel IFR)

Alternatively if the weather is crummy (say 1500' Ceilings), you can file a flight plan to a nearby airport that has an instrument approach (AZO or 35D). Assuming that the vis/ceiling is high enough for you to safely make it from those airports to 61D after shooting the approach, you can descend through the layer via the instrument approach and then get flight following to your destination, or simply cancel.

Good catch that it is charted, however.... (isn't there always), not all the airports are either in the NAS computer, nor are the controllers familiar with all the airports. The radial / DME at least gives them a fighting chance of where to look. Your suggestion of V170...OSEGO..61D is sound.



The reason you file an alternate is to comply with regulations, and to hopefully plan fuel wise for that possibility. The controller has NO IDEA what your alternate is. That data does not pass to the respective NAS computers.

If you want to communicate that info for a lost comm situation, put it in the remarks: Alternate ABC.

Unfortunately, since my days of ATC, they've regressed further, where there are not paper flight progress strips in many facilities, and the new ERAM computerized strips don't show remarks, I'm told. Good luck !!!

Aircraft ferrying is a good gig to get into. Good luck. As for the R9 transition.... let's just say you'll be ferrying kingairs by the time that charlie- fox is operational...

Thank you to everyone who has replied. As a new IFR pilot and fairly new private pilot, I'm not always the smartest when it comes to regulations and procedures! I appreciate the help :D

I believe your right tonywilliams, When flying w/ WMU I would put something in my remarks when filing via Duat.com and then ATC would ask me a question that they should have known if they had read my remarks. (I could never talk a FSS person to put my remarks in a flight plan because they said it was a waste of time!)

Yea detpilot, I emailed plane & pilot magazine editor Bill Cox and he said if I want in that business that I have my work cut out for me but I'm willing to give it a shot!

Supposedly students were supposed to start training in the R9 late April but i'm not sure if that ever happened cause i'm taking the summer off to work so I havnt been back to BTL since I passed my IFR checkride. Last I heard they were having issues with the radios loosing reception. :rolleyes:

From the area.
 

Hey WMU, P.M. me if you wish, I'm from Bridgman originally. I love to see other pilots from home. Any career questions you may have I may be able to help.

How do I PM? I cant seem to find a link to do it anywhere and when I try to open your profile to look for it there it says I'm not authorized to open that page.

How about a composite flight plan. If you're going to cancel anyway, file IFR to a fix where you're IFR flight plan terminates. Then you have to option of remaining IFR with the controller or canceling to continue to your destination. We used to do this in flight training quite often, especially when we didn't know where our destination was going to be or we strictly wanted to get students in the clouds. If there were IFR near a certain fix at a certain altitude, we'd just file direct to the fix, ask ATC for a block altitude, say 10 miles around the fix and we'd do BAI, etc in actual. When we were done, we'd ask for a lower altitude, cancel, and fly home.

From the FAQs section of APC Forum:
USMCFLYR

I thought a composite flightplan was for if you were going to fly VFR on top? Are you suggesting that I should fly IFR there then if i'm in the clouds ask for lower then just cancel and fly in VFR?

WMU never used any examples for a composite flightplan other than VFR on top during my training but if I interpreted what your saying correctly then it makes sense.

Yes - you could use a composite flight plan in the scenario that you are asking about. Composite flight plans have many other uses just VFR-on-top. My community in the military used them often for an IFR leg to the start of a VR low level route, then to pop off the VR and pickup IFR handling again for the trip home.

Since you are a new IFR pilot, I encourage you to fly in the IFR system as much as possible (to answer one poster who asked why would you file IFR in any case) and to try as many different techniques as possible as have been suggested to learn to how work the system to it's greatest advantage in your favor. Ideally, it would be the best to work all of these different techniques in the safety of actual VMC conditions before venturing into hard IMC - think of them as training runs - but file and fly as you are comfortable with when you have no choce but to fly in true IMC conditions.

I took a IMC cross-country just 1 month after getting my instrument ticket and only one VMC flight inbetween. Probably not the smartest thing to do, but it was some real experience right out of the bucket. Just be careful and don't overestimate your abilities and get yourself into a pickle.

Have fun!

USMCFLYR

And that is exactly why I plan to do as much IFR in VMC as I can, not only am I new to IFR but i'm also new to IFR in my C172. All the WMU instructors make fun of me for being so cautious all the time with my flying but i'd rather be too cautious rather than too bold and end up killing myself in a situation that I'm not ready for yet!

You're being nice and careful starting out - and I can't speak against that.
I see that you started another post about your personal mins. I'm sure that you will get a lot of different answers, but remember that those mins are just that - YOUR personal mins - not necessarily to be influenced by someone else. You will quickly get a feel for your comfort level, and that comfort level might change over time, especially with your currency and more importanly, your proficiency. You may get real comfortable and proficent, just to take a few months lay off from flying for some reasons and those mins might pop right back up again. I went from a plane that I was extremely comfortable in and had no problems shooting approaches down to mins (200/0.5) to not flying for 4 months and now flying a true steam gauge aircraft that I'm still trying to get the feel of and wouldn't want to have to shoot anything lower than let's say 800/2 right now until I have quite a bit more time under my new found flying belt.

I had a similar scenario one time to what you are trying to do and I basically did what TonyWilliams suggested. I filed to a radial/DME under IFR to a small field without an instrument approach that I could use. I had an alternate filed (Tinker AFB). As I approached my final fix, I asked for a letdown to the controller's MVA because there was a undercast cloud layer and I didn't know how thick it was. I broke out a few thousand feet before his MVA and then I canceled and proceeded on into KMKO VFR.

USMCFLYR

Filing a composite to me just isn't practical. IFR handling here in the Midwest is great and take advantage of it.

I ferried a Piper 6XT from Camarillo to Indiana, and was IFR from Flagstaff to Kansas. I opted to cancel the IFR and stay vfr over some mountains that would've required a nominal climb, and then on the back-side I picked my IFR back up. It was all in ABQ Center's airspace, so it was easy. CAVU day too

I don't see why its not practical. He wants to practice IFR, so on a composite flight like the one he mentioned, he'd pick up a clearance, depart, and cruise IFR. If the airport doesn't have an approach, he can't practice one anyway so he's going to need to be VMC to land there...may as well be VFR.