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Old 05-17-2010, 03:17 PM   #1  
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Default Filing IFR to an airport not on the chart

I got my IFR ticket at Western Michigan University 2 weeks ago in a SR20 and did my 1st solo IFR flight last Saturday to a pancake breakfast in a C172. I have another pancake breakfast May 29th at the Plainwell airport in Michigan (ID is 61D, look it up SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts or airnav.com) and I want to file IFR there too just so that I can get experience in the IFR system, but on my low enroute chart it doesn't show up on the chart.

My question is: Can I file IFR to an airport w/ no instrument approaches that is not shown on the chart? (I'm assuming I could file to it but would just have to list an alternate w/ a instrument approach even in severe VFR conditions since that's what the FAR's say to do for a airport listed on the chart w/ no published approaches)

Am I right in that assumption and if not what would the proper procedure be? The flight will be from BEH > 61D and then back.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:13 PM   #2  
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It's been a long time since I've done this but you should be able to. Your last point should be to exit the airway at an intersection or navaid. You'll need VMC at the MEA or the controllers MVA. Your other option would be to file to the closest airport with an approach, breakout, then fly VFR to the desired field, wx permitting. I know option 2 is legal. Can't remember if I'm covering all the particulars about option one.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:28 PM   #3  
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If the weather is VMC, why go through the hassle of filing IFR (especially to an uncontrolled airport)?

Also, out of curiosity, why rent out of BEH when AZO and 35D have rentals available, without the hour and a half drive?

I appalud you getting experience outside of wmu, too many of our students don't take advantage of the opportunity to get real world experience.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:45 PM   #4  
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Pretty much what everybody else said.... you don't need an alternate that I'm aware of (sorry, don't have the regs in front of me), but you'll need the weather to get in, obviously.

If the airport is in class G, of course, you can use the rules to operate in IMC there, but that has the obvious perils.

One addition I'll add is that if this is truly a small, uncharted airport, file it as a Lat/Long, example:

ABC.v123.podunk..3300/12250

Then in the remarks, put 3300/12250 is Big City Airport. Remember, airways have to end somewhere, so use an intersection or VOR somewhere (my example is "podunk" intersection).


You could also file it as a radial/DME of a nearby VOR.

ABC.v123.podunk..ABC270030

Then put ABC270030 is Big City Airport again in the remarks.

The controllers might not know about this airport, so that will at least give them an idea where it is, and the center computers can process these two examples... lat/long in that exact format: 1234/12345. That degrees and minutes only. No decimals of minutes, and no seconds.

Same for the radial / DME. Exact format. ABC123030 where ABC is the VOR, 123 is the radial, and 030 is the distance.

Lots of IFR flying is done that doesn't end at an ILS.

Tony
Formerly Oakland Center, SoCal Approach, and Camarillo Tower
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:48 PM   #5  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detpilot View Post
If the weather is VMC, why go through the hassle of filing IFR (especially to an uncontrolled airport)?

Also, out of curiosity, why rent out of BEH when AZO and 35D have rentals available, without the hour and a half drive?

I appalud you getting experience outside of wmu, too many of our students don't take advantage of the opportunity to get real world experience.
I'm assuming you have some affiliation w/ WMU due to the way you worded the last part of your message. As i'm sure you know WMU's SR20's are top of the line with all the avionics (R9 transition!) but I want to try and get into the a/c ferrying business before I try for a airline/corporate flight job. If I'm successful in that endeavor then I wont always get a glass cockpit gps equipped a/c, so I'm using this basic C172 to get that experience starting in VFR wx then moving into Marginal VFR then actual IFR WX. I just want more confidence in the system (I only did 2 flights at WMU on an IFR flightplan and both were in VFR) so that's why I file IFR now whenever I fly the C172.

I live near BEH (got my private licence there in a flying clubs C172 and am still a member) My whole freshman year I commuted from the BEH area to AZO or BTL as classes required. I could do the drive one way in a hour and at the end of the year actually saved $2500 since I didnt have to pay for a dorm! I still rent from my flying club at BEH because I cant find a decent plane in the area that rents at $80 and hour wet tach time
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:57 PM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams View Post
Pretty much what everybody else said.... you don't need an alternate that I'm aware of (sorry, don't have the regs in front of me), but you'll need the weather to get in, obviously.

If the airport is in class G, of course, you can use the rules to operate in IMC there, but that has the obvious perils.

One addition I'll add is that if this is truly a small, uncharted airport, file it as a Lat/Long, example:

ABC.v123.podunk..3300/12250

Then in the remarks, put 3300/12250 is Big City Airport. Remember, airways have to end somewhere, so use an intersection or VOR somewhere (my example is "podunk" intersection).


You could also file it as a radial/DME of a nearby VOR.

ABC.v123.podunk..ABC270030

Then put ABC270030 is Big City Airport again in the remarks.

The controllers might not know about this airport, so that will at least give them an idea where it is, and the center computers can process these two examples... lat/long in that exact format: 1234/12345. That degrees and minutes only. No decimals of minutes, and no seconds.

Same for the radial / DME. Exact format. ABC123030 where ABC is the VOR, 123 is the radial, and 030 is the distance.

Lots of IFR flying is done that doesn't end at an ILS.

Tony
Formerly Oakland Center, SoCal Approach, and Camarillo Tower
I got asked that question on my IFR checkride oral, if your destination doesn't have a approved instrument approach you must file an alternate with a IAP even in severe VFR wx.

Thanks for your reply! That make sense. I guess the worse that could happen if I file that way and the controller doesn't like it it that I wont hear "cleared as filed"

And I wont fly actual IFR in class G, imo its stupid and too risky when just above you there's a friendly controller sipping coffee in front of his radar
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:05 PM   #7  
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What airport are you coming from?

FAA Identifier: 61D

Lat/Long: 4228/08539


VOR radial/distance VOR name

AZO344015 KALAMAZOO
BTL300020 BATTLE CREEK
PMM090020 PULLMAN
GRR203020 GRAND RAPIDS
ELX047029 KEELER
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:10 PM   #8  
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Quote:
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What airport are you coming from?

FAA Identifier: 61D

Lat/Long: 4228/08539


VOR radial/distance VOR name

AZO344015 KALAMAZOO
BTL300020 BATTLE CREEK
PMM090020 PULLMAN
GRR203020 GRAND RAPIDS
ELX047029 KEELER
I'm flying from BEH. How would this look? ELX V116 AZO AZO344015
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:12 PM   #9  
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And I wont fly actual IFR in class G, imo its stupid and too risky when just above you there's a friendly controller sipping coffee in front of his radar


Ok, well, that's not true everywhere. Out west in the mountain states, radar might be up in the flight levels, so if you don't do class G, you might not get in.

Of course, I would never suggest that if you're not IMTIMATELY familiar with the terrain and obstacles. There are still non radar approach controls (Helena, Montana, Idaho Falls, Idiaho, etc).
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:20 PM   #10  
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Originally Posted by TonyWilliams View Post
Ok, well, that's not true everywhere. Out west in the mountain states, radar might be up in the flight levels, so if you don't do class G, you might not get in.

Of course, I would never suggest that if you're not IMTIMATELY familiar with the terrain and obstacles. There are still non radar approach controls (Helena, Montana, Idaho Falls, Idiaho, etc).
Your right, currently being a pilot in the flat lands I often don't think about the mountain states
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