Challenging student
 

I have a primary student with approx 17 hours of dual that still cannot land the aircraft (172sp). I have tried various techniques for visual cues and tactile control of the aircraft, to no avail. Maninly the problem seems to be inconsistencies in everything he does. For instance yesterday when checking the flight instruments (AS, ADI, ALT, TB, DG, VSI) he reached up and set the #1 vor obs to the current compass heading. This is th etype of inconsistencies that continually occur. After, 20 or soi flights, he still has trouble understanding the difference between the tuning and active window of the comm and navs. Also, the difference between comm and nav itself. I have spent much of my time teaching before and after flights on radio ops.... this is the first time I have had a student like this. Any suggestions? Maybe John and Martha are wrong... maybe not everybody can learn to fly. I don't know.
My student is approx 59 years and VERY successful at what he does.. banker or somethng like that.

Are you more worried about the radios or his landings? One step at a time. Let him concentrate on landings while you do the radios. Once he masters one thing, his confidence will increase and make him more open to learning other things. If all else fails, have you tried a different CFI? Sometimes a fresh perspective can get the ball rolling.

More concerned with landing the aircraft. I brought the radios up as an example of a possible retention issue. Also, I handle the radios while he is in the high workload mode.
As for the radios, he was particularly interested in their operation early on in his training. I am not one to say "don't worry about that now..".
Yes I am referring him to another instructor to see if that yields any benefit. Has anyone else had a student like this that continued and was able to earn their ppl?

This may be part of the issue...this type of individual is usually very good at organizing and manipulating people. The most important factor in their success is that people THINK they are doing the right things, and they are very adept at giving that impression. It is not so important that they actually DO the right things, as long as everyone thinks they did.

Placed into our world, they can have a hard transition...they cannot manipulate or bluff the laws of physics although they may try to fool you (and ATC and whoever else) into thinking they know what they are doing.

Also, those who were at the top rungs of the real-world ladder have difficulty accepting their natural newbie inadequacies in aviation. This makes it that much harder for them to approach flying with the proper attitude.

That fact that he is older doesn't help either, your capacity for learning to fly starts dropping off around age 30 and is very noticeable (for most people) by age 50. Multi-tasking is the biggest challenge, especially for those who did not grow up in the digital age.

First off maybe have a conversation with him to make it clear that any confusion, uncertainty, or lack of knowledge should be addressed with you and not glossed over. He needs to understand that asking questions and admitting weakness is not only encouraged but necessary for a flight student.

Also due to the multi-tasking challenge, definitely approach learning tasks one at a time. Only combine them when they are very solid. With a guy like this you will be doing most of the radios for a long time.

The guy should be made aware that his training is going to take more time and money than average...probably a lot more. It's also possible that he might not make it...there are certainly people who cannot learn to fly. As was mentioned you should also send him up with another CFI just to make sure that the problem is not you, or some communication barrier between you and the student.

OT, but curious where this number comes from?

Take a towel and cover up the instrument panel, completely. Everything your student needs to know about landing a 172 happens outside the airplane.

Descent, level off, flare, touchdown.

One they have that down then start adding stuff. With my students I teach them the three keys to landing: airspeed, airspeed, airspeed.

This is why everyone should fly something made in the 40's.

"This may be part of the issue...this type of individual is usually very good at organizing and manipulating people. The most important factor in their success is that people THINK they are doing the right things, and they are very adept at giving that impression. It is not so important that they actually DO the right things, as long as everyone thinks they did."

On his third lesson he was very frustrated that he couldn't land the aircraft,,, later he admitted that he thought flying was going to be pretty easy,,, he said it looked pretty easy from the ground.

"Take a towel and cover up the instrument panel, completely. Everything your student needs to know about landing a 172 happens outside the airplane."

Yes I have done this but not with a towel... Again, has anybody had one of these student types earn their ppl?

Thanks!

Yes, a few of them.

What your student is experiencing is a mental block, plain and simple. He's probably not an idiot so he can be taught to land a plane. Since you haven't tried covering the panel completely why not give it a go?

You don't need an ASI to land, it' just helps. Make him practice stalls and slow flight without being able to see the airspeed indicator so that he actually gets the feel for what a stall is instead of watching a green or white arc.

There is something your student isn't getting, it's your job to find out what that is or pass him off to another instructor. It might not be something you're failing to find, it just might be a personality conflict. I've passed off a few students who went on to find success with other instructors. Remember this is about teaching people to fly, not padding your ego. There is nothing wrong with passing the guy off.

I would really hope that I am not padding my ego... anyway thanks for all of the input from everybody... He'll be flying next week with a new CFI and I hope he can make some progress.

I've had a gentleman similar to this.

How often is he flying? My guy only flew on weekends which compounded the problem. He was also a sharp guy, successful in his career, musician, etc. Despite a lot of coaching he didn't seem to progress as she should. After his stint of solo work, we started reviewing pretty hard. I'd ask him to perform a soft field takeoff and not only would he not know how to do it, after I walked him through it he said he's never done anything like that before. We certainly have before, dozens of times. Towards the end he got pretty defensive, he started not wanting to fly and cancelling. I know money was tight with him. He had two kids entering college. He cited that as why he wasn't showing up.

My personal experience as a CFI. 20's usually pick things up rather quickly, especially multi-tasking skills such as radios. After 30, they learn fine, but not quite as quickly. After 40 it's noticeable slower...after 55, watch out.

Exceptions abound of course. People who have military or LE careers tend to do better, and I imagine that any work or recreational experience which requires hand-eye coordination or dynamic, time-sensitive communication (stockbroker, NYC Cabbie?) would also.

Any experienced instructor will have noticed this. The 55+ YO recently retired executives are the worst...they are usually completely removed from dynamic, interactive communication (in their world they talk, and the everybody listens patiently). Everything is on their schedule, at a pace comfortable to them...it's been a long time since they have pressured or challenged by their immediate environment. Their challenges are large in scope and long term.

Thankfully, my student has been nothing but respectful and courteous.

I would leave the A/S uncovered, but the rest of it being covered is fine by me. A/S is the only thing you cannot truly judge by being in the plane.

Flight Sim
 

I have two suggestions for helping your student:

First:
If you have a handy setup, I'd suggest this is a situtation for Flight Simulator (either Microsoft Flight Sim X, or X-Plane).

In particular, focus on the "PAUSE" feature. Let him fly to each "next-step", (turn-to-base, turn-to-final, flare, etc,) pause the sim, then talk about it in detail before resuming.

Its very difficult to discuss decisions and correct bad choices while flying along at 65 knots. The beauty of simulators is that you can pause in the middle, review everything, then when you continue, he can make the "proper" decisions.

Do this over and over, until he can do it properly without any pauses.
Then you'll be ready to try in real life again.

Second:
Be sure your student has rigorous, exacting checklists.

For example, I had one instructor who told me:
When you're near to abeam the landing spot, Carb-heat on, slow down, nose down.

The much better instructor taught me:
EXACTLY abeam the landing spot, carb-heat on, throttle to EXACTLY 1500 RPM, nose to EXACTLY 5 degrees down.

The first set of instructions left me a lot of margin, which turned into errors.
The second set told me exactly what to do, and gave me a criteria to judge my own success/failure on.

Then you have to enforce that your student follows the precise steps. If each step isn't done exactly, he can't go on to the next one.

Good luck!

This is my target market. The ones I keep don't quibble about the rate. They demand high value from me otherwise they'd be gone immediately, usually without notice. They can afford to learn how to fly and usually can buy their own aircraft and maintain it well.

I disagree on the decreased capacity to learn. The learning is more deliberate in the experienced crowd and their life experience makes them more respectful of the learning and flying environment.

However, I do notice a significant learning difference between those that are between businesses and those that are actively working their business(es). Those that are enjoying the break are not fatigued. They have 100% of their attention focused on learning. They don't have seven more meetings to attend after our 5 PM lesson having started at 6 AM that morning. They can do their homework.

The executive that has an active business and the challenges that go along with it may be flying just for the sheer recreation of it. If it is one lesson a week, I'm fine with that, so long as they can do two lessons, even if on the same day, during the occasional week that needs more attention. Landing is one of those topics that requires more attention. I've usually already advised the student that we're not in a race to solo at "x" hours. If they are, then they'll need to spend more time on flying and less with their business.

So, we'll make a lunch date out of it. We'll fly in the morning. This might start out in the practice area where we'll review rudder control and trim. Move on to slow flight and stalls. We'll run the rudder coordination exercises to refresh the brain and muscle control. This exercise focuses the attention. If there is a wicked crosswind somewhere, we'll fly to it and work landing approaches for a bit, to the crosswind runway. This too focuses attention. (Note: If an excessive wind, we won't land, the exaggerated control use drives home the visual cues and control usage needed, and everyone needs go-around practice.)

After the workout, we'll head somewhere fun and have lunch. I've learned to order a fast-eaten meal, as I'll be conducting groundschool throughout. Knives and spoons become the runways, parts of the pattern, the wind, and so on. Salt and pepper shakers and coffee cups are great for the various landmarks.

Following lunch, we'll head back to home base (unless the closer we get the more distracted the student) and work the pattern for a bit, the goal is "scaring the runway" typically. The previous flight and ground session loosened the rust and now the student can spend some time learning. We may only do three landing approaches, but in terms of learning, this is Grade A+ time. Depending on how things are going, we'll either do full stops and taxi back, my taking the taxi so the student can listen, or I'll take it on the climbout if we're "scaring the runway". If I'm flying, the student can listen.

"Scaring the runway" makes conducting low approaches fun, the goal to get slower and lower each time, until finally, we touch down. I'll take control of the throttle on final while the student works the controls. As we get closer to the roundout, float, and flare, the student's job will be to continue "holding it off," not allowing the aircraft to land. This increases the practice time of the float and flare from about 3-6 seconds per pattern to nearly 30 seconds with a long runway. If the controllers are particularly cranky about little aircraft using their long runway, I'll call ahead and arrange this for a less busy time. If it is really slow, the tower may put their trainee on, so my trainee can mess up their trainee and vice versa. As the student gets better with their coordination, I've have them deliberately move off centerline laterally to fly over the TDZE markers or a distance stripe, then back on to centerline.

If we've done a few patterns and the student seems to have the hang of the roundout, float, and flare, one time I'll simply leave a bit of the power on, we'll touch down, and I'll reduce the power to idle. We end on that success. Having the success to remember for the week until the next lesson increases motivation and makes it far more likely for the student to return and even progress. Success building success is no different from the 6 y/o to the 60 y/o.

BTW, the recently retired guys I fly with aren't retired for long. They're always looking for the next project/business/opportunity.

More detail
 

I may have missed this, but what exactly is happening during landing (or not landing)? Not being lined up? Not flaring at the right time?

Two things that stuck with me from my student days were:
"Dance with her". Feet and hands always correcting.
"Look at the far end of the runway". Helped alot when knowing when to flare.

Have the student get some sort of reference as to how "high" they are when the plane is on the ground - that might help with SA near the flare.

HTH

..
 

I've actually had quite a few students that were like this.. All were under 20, but all were from other countries and had limited experience with mechanical objects.

I remember when I was working on my PPL. I had a hard time figuring out when and where to do each thing. I had my instructor at the time go over in a ground and then in the aircraft what exactly to do and when. Also I asked if i could fallow on the controls while he talked what he was doing at the time. It helped me tons. I use it today with my students that are having problems.

Some other ideas, try going to an uncontrolled field so that he can not have to worry about traffic and radio calls.

Yes, I've seen that too. ESL doesn't help either.

NOOOOO! This is a very bad idea for the vast majority of students. PC based flight sims are horrible for hands-on, stick-and-rudder skills...you will only develop and reinforce not-quite-realistic-enough muscle skills.

Also, the lack of all-around visibility not allow students to not look where they should be looking, or use their peripheral vision.

Even with a cockpit mockup it's a very bad way to learn to fly initially. Professionals use sims to learn to fly advanced aircraft but that is only because advanced airplanes are very expensive to operate. The pro-pilot's skills and experience allow him to compensate for the significant realism errors present in even a level D sim.

MS Flight sim can be useful to brush up on IFR scan and procedures (holds, etc) for someone who has already mastered those skills, but nothing stick-and-rudder.

This is good advice...specific targets for each phase of a maneuver takes a lot of guesswork out of the equation.

Response to Rick.
 

RickAir7777: I agree with you, and am suggesting Flight Sim in a very narrow, specific application.

Specifically, the original problem was described as "inconsistencies"; not knowing what to set the VOR to, not knowing the difference between COM and NAV, Active and Standby.

These are things that are difficult to discuss in detail while in the pattern.
And trying to discuss them on the ground is hard because none of the needles actually move or respond.

This is the only reason I'm suggesting Flight Sim in this case, and it is NOT for stick-n-rudder skills.

In the computer, you can pause a particular display and ask, "Why is the needle pointing this direction? What does it mean? Which way do you expect it to move in the next minute? Let's un-freeze the game, and see if you're right..."

Flight sim is bad for many things, I understand, but for looking at a cockpit that actually responds, and playing with knobs to see what happens, I think it is actually a pretty helpful tool, but only in the right specific conditions.

I had 60 year old student who basically untrainable. He was incompetent, and flying with him was nervewracking because he had no clue what he was doing or why. Ask for a 30 degree bank and you would get 60, wild stuff. It was a shame because he really wanted to fly but his eye-hand skills did not develop after 70 hours of trying to develop them. After about 10 hours with me (60 with others) I let him go and recommended that he quit. It was agonizing for both of us. We discussed some possible alternatives for him, such as model airplane flying and simulator flying. But for someone who is still being trained, I would not recommend using a sim unless they use it for instrument work or perhaps procedures that do not require fine aircraft control. And at some point if someone can't do basics like land an airplane without having a tail strike or leaving the runway inadvertently, they simply can't be a pilot. At that point they need to come to grips with it and find another hobby. It is your duty to discourage them at that point.

A myriad of inconsistent behavior after 17 hours include, dumping the yoke forward during the roundout to flare. When I ask why he did that, the response is pretty much "I don't know".

Somebody mentioned flying exactly by the numbers and that is how I have taught for years. for example in the 172S at our home airport... after climbing from xwind to downwind and attaining pattern alt,,, the procedure goes something like this: 1500' - pitch 5 - 1700rpm - flaps 10 - trim for 80kts - Gumps check. Abeam threshold - reduce to 1400 rpm... etc.

It's the same procedure each lap.... He has detailed notes from multiple hours of ground covering pattern ops and profiles. These notes are reviewed ptior to flight.

Another inconsistency- sometimes, he'll try to roll the aircraft into a 50 deg bank in the pattern. He doesn't do this all the time, which is strange to me. In analyzing his behavior during maneuvering, it seems as though he'll input aileron and somewhat zone out, like he was thinking about something else or his attention is captured by some other detail.

Anyway, he will be flying this week with a new fellow and I'll get a report back on his progress after a few flights.

Sounds like your student may not be studying on his own other than a cram session right before lessons. That or he is overthinking every procedure to the point where he cannot process the simple cues needed to land. Those last 50 feet to the ground are more like art, than procedure. We all know you have to feel your way down. Perhaps the student is trying to find some method to use that is one-size-fits-all, instead of guiding the aircraft to the ground.

In terms of solutions, I think the go-around practice could be extremely valuable, especially if the student knows ahead of time that a go-around is coming. There's no worry of having to control the plane to the ground. I used to do several laps down to about 100-200 feet with students so they could get their procedure down. The goal is to obtain an appropriate and stabilized final approach, every time. A good approach gives you the best chance of a great landing.

Once the student masters arriving on final, he can concentrate on the art of landing. Set your student up on glidepath, fully configured, and let him fly the last 500 feet. (Obviously, you should remain close on the controls given the low altitude). Alternately, you can have the student talk you through a landing, performing his instructions to get you on the ground (within reason of course). This may give you a hint as to whether he knows the drill and is having problems with the flying part, or if he does not understand what he must accomplish.