RVSM Question
 

My company purchased a new CJ3 and after we changed the N number we submitted a RVSM manual to the FSDO, but have not received approval yet. We have a 1500 nm flight on Tuesday and I really don't want to be stuck below FL290. Has anyone ever requested a transition of RVSM airspace to with a negative RVSM aircraft? If so, how did you file? Did you file for FL430 for example and put "NEGATIVE RVSM" in the remarks? According to the regs it's legal, but I've never done this before. Thanks in advance.

File the appropriate suffix, put NEGATIVE RVSM in the remarks section, file your preferred altitude and when you check in with Center say "negative RVSM" and getting up to altitude shouldn't be an issue...although there very well may be a delay for the climb (which would allow you to get to VMo and have plenty of energy for an aggressive climb rate).

How long has FSDO had your manual? If its been more than 3-4 weeks a call to the inspector to see what the problem is might be useful...

Just fly the altitude you want. The FAA is so behind the power curve they will never know.

Nothing like a pilot encouraging another pilot to arbitrarily and purposely violate a regulation. :mad:

Now, I don't know much about your airplane, but if you can get ABOVE FL410, then you can legally transit RVSM airspace to get on top. I have done that in an airplane up to FL450. I would file to whatever your above FL410 altitude is and make sure that your ICAO filght plan has all the correct codes showing non-RVSM. Just keep saying that you are requesting transit of RVSM airspace.

I would not fly in RVSM airspace even if the controller allows it. You can still get a violation if a sup comes in or you get pushed into a different sector. Good luck.

Details to Do It Legally
 

lwaddle:

The T-38 I fly (and I think this is true for every fighter aircraft in the country) is not RVSM certifiable because:

1. We don't have an autopilot
2. Don't have an altitude-alerter
3. Don't have two sources of pitot-static
4. Don't have independent altimeters

Nonetheless, I have flown in RVSM airspace legally. I also dealt with this in a Lear 35 that took 9 months to get the paperwork on the OPSECS after the mod was done. (Yes, that was frustrating).

How to:

Check the AIM for exact format, but file the highest legal altitude you can fly (either 270 or 280), and in the remarks, "Request FLXXX; Negative RVSM" (That's how I file it; it works).

First Controller above FL230, tell him "Request FLXXX, negative RVSM." That's the key.

He will give it to you IF traffic permits. However, for HIM to be legal, he needs no one inside a cylinder 2000 ft above and below you. The front of the cylinder is 20 miles in front, not sure if it is 20 miles all around, or if it is 20 front, 10-ish on the side, and 5-ish behind.

Either case, that is a big chunk of moving airspace, centered around your airplane, and why it is so traffic-dependent. Almost impossible on the east-coast corridor. Best luck is late at night, and over the western half of the country.

IF he gives you clearance, every altitude call you make must include "Negative RVSM," even if just checking-on with the next sector.

Do NOT just file it and fly there as (I hope) CE650 was kidding.

Just re-read this and realized you were asking about transiting RVSM. If your jet can go that high, yes...easier, but he (ATC) still needs the 20-mile/2000 bubble around you to give you the climb or the descent. Once above 410, you don't need to say negative RVSM...but when you descend into it again, yes (until below it).

UAL -

I **think** the Super Hornet was just recently certified though it doesn't have any of the items that you listed. The military was the cause of the exclusion in the first place - or so I was told at the Hornet Safety Systems Working Group in 2007. They started working on getting the strike/fighter community back into the block.

Iwaddle - Though I have not filed into RVSM lately - I have flown in it with the ATC's permission and like advised - I was sure to let them know that I was not properly equipped.

USMCFLYR

Thanks for the tips. Hopefully the Feds will hurry up and get our manual approved so I don't have to keep doing this.

ce650... I wouldn't bet the farm on that advice... Ace.

Iwaddle... get in contact with an ATC specialist for policies and procedures for transiting RVSM airspace.

post nr 2000 :eek:

Sorry guys I WAS just kidding. Guess I need to use those little smiley faces.

All is forgiven then! ;)

(Sorry for my rant- I HAVE encountered several folks with that attitude... including one that ended up having a loss of separation due to crappy equipment). :eek:

I don't recommend zoom climbs in RVSM with TCAS equipped aircraft everywhere. Might get somebody hurt, or violated, or worse.

If he's at FL280 and the controller is trying to climb him through RVSM airspace, odds are good that the controller will want to get him up to FL430 as soon as possible...and I'm not sure a zoom climb works too well when you're looking to go up 15,000ft anyway.

In a CJ3, which climbs pretty well at altitude anyway, beginning a climb at FL280 and VMo should allow a sustained climb of at least 1500fpm (probably more) all the way to FL430.

When traffic is an issue for climbing, I like to tell ATC what climb rates we're capable of so that they can plan their separation accordingly - no surprises for anyone and once ATC knows what we can do it usually allows us to get a climb clearance.

The Military gets a a free pass. They are covered under one of the 5 exceptions to the rule. Another is when doing flight test for first time RVSM approval.

Not Quite Free..
 

We're not quite 'free:' we have to state negative-RVSM, and it is subject to controller approval/workload. That makes us the same as any other non-RVSM aircraft.

I try to show it to my students when we are cross-country, so they can learn the terminology, and see how the aircraft handles in the 30s (it's different; gets a little twitchy above FL320). I can get approval usually only once every 2-3 months.

Now, if it were for operational necessity (chasing somebody to stop an attack), all bets are off.

The military get's a pass with regards to needing to have prior approval through LOA. Officially, civilian non-RVSM aircraft must precoordinate operations in RVSM airspace prior to filing a flight plan or requesting access (including climbing above RVSM), however there is a lot of lee way given.

Military aircraft in RVSM airspace that don't have appropriate RVSM certified aircraft are subject to normal non-RVSM separation standards (2000' vertical).

New To Me
 

Josh:

I didn't know that distinction....thanks. I learned something today.

I can't find anything in the regulations that states you must precoordinate operations in RVSM prior to filing. In fact according to the AIM is specifically states: "file-and-fly" then request your transition.

It seems that you military guys have to deal with this all the time so I'm sure you know better than me. My plan is to file for FL430 and put "NEGATIVE RVSM" in the remarks. Once I'm with center I'll request FL430 Negative RVSM. I'll post tomorrow afternoon after I land to report how everything goes.

Here's what the AIM says:

4-6-11. Non-RVSM Aircraft Requesting Climb to and Descent from Flight Levels Above RVSM Airspace Without Intermediate Level Off

a. File-and-Fly. Operators of Non-RVSM aircraft climbing to and descending from RVSM flight levels should just file a flight plan.

b. Non-RVSM aircraft climbing to and descending from flight levels above RVSM airspace will be handled on a workload permitting basis. The vertical separation standard applied in RVSM airspace between non-RVSM aircraft and all other aircraft shall be 2,000 feet.

c. Non-RVSM aircraft climbing to/descending from RVSM airspace can only be considered for accommodation provided:

1. Aircraft is capable of a continuous climb/descent and does not need to level off at an intermediate altitude for any operational considerations and

2. Aircraft is capable of climb/descent at the normal rate for the aircraft.

d. Required Pilot Calls. The pilot of non-RVSM aircraft will inform the controller of the lack of RVSM approval in accordance with the direction provided in paragraph 4-6-8, Pilot/Controller Phraseology.