Hood time
 

Say I know someone who is about to start instrument training who I want to split plane time with. For both of us to get pic time one of us needs to be under the hood. Is he allowed to wear the hood and log simulated instrument even though he's not instrument rated? I ask because I don't think he'd want to split time if i'm always the one flying under the hood. He'd get the time but he would be bored out of his mind. Also, the answer is probably no but if the plane is not legal ifr can one of us still go under the hood and log the time for things like level flight, turns, etc? I obviously wouldn't file ifr or shoot an approach but I thought i'd ask.

If you are a private pilot you can act as safety pilot provided that: (ok good excuse for me to pull out the AIM from the dust :)

91.109
b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless
1. The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
2. The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements vision of the safety pilot; and....

ii. The person manipulating the control has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.

Is he allowed to wear the hood and log simulated instrument even though he's not instrument rated?
The simple answer is yes. It could count towards his instrument rating requirements. Remember the 3 hours of simulated instrument time you needed for your PPL? Those 3 hours counts for your instrument rating!

please correct me if I am wrong. But, you can only log time (as a safety pilot) when the other person is under the hood. If you are a private pilot, you have to be seated in the left seat to log hood time. You can't switch the hood between 2 PPLs.

I knew about the safety pilot logging. I was unware that it had to be in the left seat though. Reason is a few guys I'm flying with aren't with the club that I fly with so they technically couldn't sit in the left seat.

As I mentioned before, remember that the right seat safety pilot must be the legal and responsible PIC to log the PIC time. You will need to verify that is acceptable with wherever you are renting the plane from.

The whole idea of two people getting PIC for the same flight is that if the aircraft or the conditions under which it is operated requires two pilots then the one manipulating the controls always gets PIC but the other only if he accepts the legal role of PIC, otherwise he is SIC. That is why you see airline cockpits with the first officer flying the plane and the captain assisting. The captain is the legal PIC but the FO gets PIC for flying the plane.

You could certainly shoot an approach in a non-IFR legal airplane. You are not flying IFR, your plane does not need to be legal for IFR. You are flying VFR.. Ex, an ILS requires an ADF for the LOM but you don't have one. You could still line up and follow the glideslope down under the hood with a safety pilot (just did that a few hours ago).

Seat doesn't matter as far as the FAR is concerned. If your guy cannot sit left seat according to club rules then he probably cannot be PIC according to club rules and, if your club rules are like mine, he cannot fly the airplane from the right seat. If your club membership is of any value to you just ask one of the club officers what they will and will not allow. Don't play games with their rules (not saying you are).

Since you say you do, I'll assume that you do know the logging rules for this and won't bother repeating themYes. Look at 61.51 for logging instrument time - actual or simulated instrument conditions and not one word about needing an instrument rating. Yes again. The aircraft certification rules for IFR flight apply to, well, IFR, flight. From the airplane's point of view, your flight is VFR*.

I'm sure alfa was using right seat and left seat generically and not suggesting that the flying pilot always has to be on the left and the safety pilot on the right. That's just where they usually are and is not an FAA requirement (certain aircraft excepted - but they will have information in the limitations section about that). There may be club or insurance rules, though.




* yes, I know that you can even fly on an IFR flight plan with an airplane that's not certified for IFR flight so long as you stay out of the clouds, bu no reason to go beyond the question that was asked.

Untrue. In an airline cockpit the FO can only log SIC for anytime as an FO. Whether flying or not.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll have to look into the rules for my club to make sure I won't be violating any. But it's good to know about this because now I can have the guy I'm flying with in the right seat do some hood flying as well and I can save money by getting a cheap VFR C-150 to do this work in.

Also untrue. There is never a SIC in an aircraft that only requires one pilot- there is 1 PIC, or 2 PIC's. Confusing I know, but the only way a safety pilot can log flight time is if he takes PIC responsibility for looking out for traffic.

No one should have SIC time logged in an aircraft that never requires 2 crew.

You might have missed my premise "if the aircraft or the conditions under which it is operated requires two pilots". In that case, the pilot flying the airplane always gets PIC (assuming of course he is appropriately rated and has a current medical). The non-flying pilot is SIC if he is not the legal and responsible PIC. No?

So if the FO is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which is is rated then he cannot log PIC? Seems in direct contradiction to the rules on logging time though I do not claim to be familiar with Part 121 operations.

Hi. Is this case, I was cautioning the OP to check with his club rules regarding who can be PIC and where the PIC must sit. In my club, PIC must sit left seat and the aircraft must be flown from the left seat. Exceptions for training with club CFI's, of course. Another club had a clarification in their rules that the intent is that only a club member can be PIC of the club airplane (see the quote below from that club's rules).

Other than that I was saying that the FARs do not care what seat the safety pilot and hood pilot sit in so long as appropriate dual controls (or throwover controls) exist at both seats.

Not this again!

This is absolutely incorrect. The operation of simulated instrument flight makes the safety pilot a defacto required flight crewmember, and the FAA is very clear that that pilot is second in command unless otherwise specified. (If an agreement is reached before the flight that the safety pilot has PIC responsibility over the conduct of the flight, both pilots may log PIC, one for acting as PIC, and the other for being the sole manipulator).

Would you guys -please- get this straight? This has been the rule and interpretation for years and years, and yet people keep. spreading. the. same. misinformation.

Read 14 CFR 61.51 (f) 2; see also innumerable letters of interpretation from an FAA that's remarkably consistent on this topic:

Example, et al

As a safety pilot operating under simulated instrument flight, can you:
- Log SIC? Yes, by default.
- Log PIC? Yes, if you agree to assume PIC responsibility for the flight being conducted, otherwise no.

As a pilot operating under simulated instrument flight, can you:
- Log PIC? At all times you are the sole manipulator of the controls.

~Foxy

No... I have plenty of time as the sole manipulator of a 777. Some of it when the Captain was not even on the flight deck. None of it is PIC.

I have a 777 type and first class medical.

Edit: In an aircraft that requires two pilots, there really is no sole manipulator.

And directly in agreement with:

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

This has been beat to death so much it's not even funny. You can put whatever you want in your logbook. Per the regs, the two things a logbook does is show you have the time and training for a rating or certificate and show you're current. Since almost all 121 pilots already have their ATP, the first part doesn't matter. I'll bet over half the 121 pilots don't even log their time or if they do, it's just in those little red or blue books to make sure they get paid for their trips.

But really only since about 1992 when the FAA Chief Counsel's office was very specific on this:

Of course, if one thinks 18 years is too old, one can always look at 2009:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...is%20Glenn.pdf

It's no different than the rule that allows the non-flying co-pilot in Part 135 passenger-carrying IFR operations to log SIC in aircraft certified ops single-pilot ops.

Funny, I write a post that says I'll assume the OP understands the logging rules. And then other try to give the OP mis-information about them.