Buy a type?
 

I have 3000 tt 2000jet SIC with no ATP. If I bought a 737 type to get my ATP, would that open any doors for me?

Probably not, but it can't hurt.

3000 dollars to get an ATP at ATP in a seminole. At least this is a 737 type, for 6000 dollars

I think having the ATP itself is more valuble then the type in your situation. Cause if you have the type, youll have no time in the actuall airplane which companies seem to be a stickler about. You can the ATP rating for $1500.

My recommendation would be to get the ATP (without the 737 type) and try to find some way to get some turbine PIC time ... I know, not as easy as it sounds.

Reminds me of an old Steve Martin joke: "Ok, how to be a millionaire ... first, get a million dollars. Now ...."

Having an ATP will open doors for you.

Since you should get your ATP, now the question is how should you get it.

If you go to get an ATP in a piston aircraft, it will cost 3-4k. So in reality, it's only an additional 2-3k to get the 737 type. I would get the 737 type. The 737 is the most built commercial aircraft in history with over 6,000 built. There are thousands of them flying everyday. Most major airlines operates the 737. It will not go to waste. Southwest requires it to get hired (and its good to have for the interview). You may see other airlines go that way in the future. You need to do something to set you apart from the other tens of thousands of pilots looking for work, especially at the creme of the crop carriers.

Now lets say you decided to get the piston ATP for 3-4k, and a month later Southwest comes knocking. Now you're going to have to pay the 6k on top of the 3-4k you already spent.

I'd definitely get the ATP, and I'd get the 737 type with it.

With only the above info, I'd say that it'd be a waste of money. From your profile, looks like you are a RJ FO. When you upgrade, you will get a type and an ATP paid for by your company. Without 1000 turbine PIC, the 737 is useless because SWA is the only company that requires it (that I know of stateside). If you get hired at a different major, most are going to type you when you go through their training anyways.

I wouldn't think that having the type would hurt you, but you could spend the money in better places.

As other posters have said, unless you have the turbine PIC to go with it, an airliner type is not worth much. To get the turbine PIC, you'll have to go through a training program which will provide you with your ATP.

I would only get a type if you know of a job where they commonly hire without the turbine PIC but want a type (maybe some corporate jets? I don't know...). I also wouldn't even get the ATP unless you have a solid lead on a job which requires it.

Think of it this way... is a 2000hr SIC ATP in a whole higher level than a 2000hr SIC commercial pilot? I wouldn't say so. Almost all the regionals (except Compass?) definitely do not require an ATP. All the majors are going to want to see substantial turbine PIC, which you won't have even if you get your ATP. You're still only marketable to regionals, and with 2000 hours, you're about as marketable as you need to be as far as flight time, experience, and certification goes.

I'd either take the few grand and use it to better myself in another way which will really set yourself apart (maybe taking some college courses or participating in some kind of community service).... or save it for when the day comes that you need a few grand to get a job (job fairs, suit, interview prep, or maybe even an ATP later on if the opportunity presents itself).

Or, really thinking "outside the box".... you'll get an ATP and some type ratings some day. They'll happen. If you want to spend that money on flying, go get a glider, flight instructor, or seaplane rating (if you don't have one). They're fun to do, all costs about the same as that ATP, and it'll set you apart in the interview from the sea of ATP AMEL pilots out there. They're good conversation starters and you might make some great connections... many airline pilots fly gliders (and some, seaplanes) for fun on their time off.

With 3000 and 2000sic, don't worry about Southwest coming knocking. Get the ATP at ATP for around 1800, or wait for the upgrade at current company.

^^^^^^^^^
I agree with the above post. If you're already an RJ FO for a regional, don't buy either one. Just wait for your upgrade. An ATP (without turbine PIC) and a 73 type (without time in a 737) are both useless.

By the time a pilot makes it to your level of experience he has already spent a lot to get there, so don't do either. Wait until you have been awarded an upgrade then you can get your ATP and type at the same time, all on the company's dollar. Keep your money in your pocket. In the mean time keep building time.

Here is my thinking. I have all jetblue mins except ATP. I know a captain there who can help me get a job if I have an ATP. I figured the 737 with it may help.

Why not get a 320 rating instead?

Just curious how long for the upgrade at the Brickyard? Whatever the case you're building experience and turbine time, and when it does come time to upgrade you will have an ATP, and a new jet type rating which proves to other carriers that you are trainable.

They don't fly 737s so it is a TOTAL waste of time and more importantly... $$$

I cant live on regional wages any more thus the problem. I need to figure a way to add more to the paycheck and if I have to spend some to get some I will. Any ideas? Regional upgrade may be years!

A320 too expensive for me.

So if I have this correct you're having a tough time making ends meet but you're wanting to go spend money you apparently don't have on a type in a jet your prospective company doesn't operate?

A type with no time in type is worthless, your money does still hold some value but a little patience would probably serve you better. If you're dead set on spending some cash then go get your ATP in a piston twin. Mine cost me $1300 including the examiner and doesn't say "ATP Multi-piston-bugsmasher Only"

Buffalopilot, you have to remember the motivation of the posters on this board. They don't want you to pay for your training because it sets a precedent that other pilots are willing to pay for their own training. There is a huge stigma about pay for training. Of course pilots don't want to pay for their training, but doctors pay for med school, lawyers pay for law school, why shouldn't pilots pay for ATP's? The other posters are not looking out for you. They are looking out for their own selfish interests (mob mentality... no one should pay for training). You need to look out for yourself. There are tens of thousands of pilots who are looking for the same job you are. What are you going to do to set yourself apart?

I've always been an ambitious person. I don't wait for things (like upgrades and ATP's) to come for me. I go out and get them. I set myself apart from the other 1,000 resumes in the stack.

Having an ATP and a type rating will only help you get to where you want to go. I'd say do whatever you can to get the A320 type if you'd like to go to Jetblue (A320 is the 2nd most produced airliner of all time, many airlines have them, and there are thousands of them flying every day. It won't go to waste). If you really can't get the A320 type rating, then get the 737 type with an ATP. Be ambitious. Go out and get what you want rather than waiting for it to come to you. Go and get the type and ATP.

http://www.philzimmermann.com/images/TinFoilHatArea.jpg

buffalo, do you not have an ERJ-145 SIC type rating? So you've gotten a type in the sense that you've proved you can complete training. You need PIC if you don't already have it, there really isn't a good way around that and hence overseas is a good way to go if you've got the freedom to do it and if they're still hiring.

You've also got to remember how people view pft types: "here's your lollipop because we're in the business of your success." Thus, it won't impress anyone because there wasn't any responsibility behind the type as there is when you get a type for your job. Save your money.

Here ya go, call ALL ATP, go get your ATP in the Piper and start networking, showing up to the job fairs, keep applying, go overseas, whatever:

Airline Transport Pilot
ATP Certificate 2 Days / $1,995
ATP Certificate – 10-Hour 4 Days / $2,995
ATP Certificate – 15-Hour 5 Days / $4,495
ATP Written & Certificate 3 Days / $2,195
ATP Written & Certificate – 10-Hour 5 Days / $3,195
ATP Written & Certificate – 15-Hour 6 Days / $4,695

I have to say that in BP's situation, this might be poor advice.

Basically, he is saying that he can't support himself on RJ FO's wages (understandable) much longer and his only *real* shot is JetBlue. Strapped for cash and you want him to go spend 5-8k on an ATP and a type that (other than EMB or A320) his prospective airline doesn't even operate?

BP, if you are dead set on not waiting out the upgrade and HAVE to spend the money on aviation, I recommend getting a citation type and your ATP. At least then, you might have a shot at getting some TPIC and moving on up the ladder. Buying a 737 or A320 type with your time and financial situation will most likely be regrettable.

Wouldn't someone who bought a E190 or A320 type who was hired at Jetblue still be required to go through Jetblue's full training? It doesn't save any money unless you get to skip training which is the case really in the corporate world. A Lear 35 type is handy, Beechjet or Hawker 800 family as well. I'm sure a Citation II type is good to have. But thats about 3X the cost of an airliner type.

What about these guys?
http://www.flightcrewint.com/

Go fly A340s out of Turkey. Save your $5K to get your hideous JAA certificates.

Buffalo,

If you are strapped for cash, spending more money in HOPES of getting an interview and MAYBE a job is pretty dumb. It's kinda like buying lotto tickets.

Read this guy's post again, very carefully.... especially the first few sentences. He is right: we DON'T want ANYONE paying for training, and there IS a stigma about those who DO. Do YOU want to have that stigma? Is THAT how you want to set yourself apart?

Having a type rating (almost ANY type) does show you can satisfactorily complete a training program in something more complicated than a Seminole. But having the WRONG type rating could be a determent. What might an all Airbus interviewer think when he sees you bought a 73 type? Is he thinking "this guy is a hard charger" or "this guy is just gonna jump ship when Southwest starts hiring"?

If you have prospects outside the airlines, an ATP is probably your best investment. If you really think a type will help, why not get a Citation of Lear type. There are loads of them flying, and no airline interviewer will question your motives. Heck, if you are flying an RJ, why not get a type in the GA version of whatever you are currently flying? Then you have the rating and time in type which would make you very marketable to a 91 or 135 op. Not to mention it would be a whole lot easier than learning an airplane from scratch.

But all these things cost money you DO NOT have. Adding debt is not what you should do right now.

If you insist on spending thousands of dollars to get a job, then why not just cut to the chase:

Get the names and addresses of the Chief Pilot, Director of HR, and three Check Airmen and send each of them a resume, a check for $500, and the promise of another $500 after you get the offer.

Good luck.

the above is correct. I know of people that would not list the 737 type on the ticket so as not to be discriminated against by employers.

Do NOT PFT!!!!!

If you are running out of money soon and your upgrade at your current employer is "years" away. Take the hit now. Target a new employer that is offering quick upgrades. You may need to drop the money for quick ATP, even in a light twin. It is getting a check in the box and at the potential employer you would be targeting - it would put you up with the others pursuing that job.
The 73 Type would be a waste of money for you at your current qaulifications. Use that money to get the quick ATP and put in bank to supplement your low salary at one of "those low time - quick upgrade" airlines. Get in - Get out. Get that PIC time (even a turboprop) as quick as you can. Then, call your friend at JetBlue to use that "chit".

Exceptionally BAD advise considering the current hiring climate and the simple fact that by the time you get to a place with a "quick upgrade" you've already missed the boat.

Buffalo,

There's some good advice on here and some dogma. I'll let you decide for yourself which is which.

My $.02

- You need PIC, specifically Turbine PIC. Figure out what your life situation allows in pursuit of Turbine PIC, and then go get some.
- The industry is a byotch. Hopefully things will open up in the next 2-3 years. Only you can decide if you think it will be worth it to hang on. But do the homework, crunch some best/worst case scenarios, maybe decide on a make it or break it point. I know a few folks who left commercial aviation for other lines of work...they fly GA on the side and couldn't be happier
- Don't get an expensive rating with a longshot hope that it might help you get a job, especially if the carrier you are focusing on the most doesn't even require it
- Don't be afraid to get a rating if the carrier you want to fly for requires it (yes, I am a SWA bubba, I've only applied to one airline in my life, so take that for what it's worth)
- Everyone pays for training at some point in their career (even if it's just for a PPL). Just try not to be the guy incurring huge debt and then working for minimal wages with no reasonable chance of making it back before going on food-stamps.
- I don't know your age or level of patriotism, but there are still flying jobs to be had in the armed services (to include the Guard and Reserve). Don't do it because you want cheap flying time or else you'll be miserable, but if serving your nation appeals to you...

I disagree, If I was at Coex I'd get the hell out of there to a fast place to get part 121 tpic time. May be hard to find but there won't be any movemrnt at a lot of these regionals as 50 seaters are parked system wide.

Where is he going to go that doesn't have a 3 year wait at this point? Even Colgan is pushing 3 years for an upgrade time. "Quick upgrade" should be synonymous with "pilot shortage".

Nope, good values and hard work will though...

340 in Turkey for an RJ guy? hahahahaha
You obviously don't know what you are talking about..

BP, PM me if you have questions..

To the OP, put your money in an IRA or 401k. 30 or 40 years from now it will have done more for you.

Nope, I don't. I've never looked for a foreign job. Never had too. But it took 20 seconds to goggle it and post it back. Why don't you enlighten us on flying for a foreign carrier?

Spirit will be hiring soon and our new-hire FO's get a pic type (ATP, of course) in initial training.
...could be a stepping stone to Jet Blue, or who knows...?

They are looking for a minimum of 4000 hours total time though.

Buffalo,
I think you got several points of view to help you make a tough decision. Having made the decission to pursue this career already has shown you are used to taking different pieces of information and making the best decision.

ESA17,
I am curious what you in particular found to be beyond "bad" in my ideas.

Agreed.

And, I know it's probably not popular around here, but if you can't afford life on pilot pay.........there are better paying jobs out there. They just aren't in an airplane.

Gotta do what ya gotta do.

If it were me, I'd take the better paying job and fly airplanes later. There are much more important things in life than pulling back to make the houses smaller.

-mini

Well, it's been a while since I took 6th grade grammar and studied the related info regarding context clues but if I were an outsider looking in I'd probably pick the part I highlighted in bold text.


But that's just me.

I flew the PA31 for Ameriflight for 8 months and then got transitioned to the BE99. Could have taken one a few months earlier but I didn't look highly upon the prospect of living in Nebraska. All of my PA31 time is PIC time and now all of my BE99 time is Turbine PIC time. No Type / ATP required and when I move up to the B1900 or the Metroliner, they will give me an ATP and a Type in whichever I get into! I am now getting the one thing I could get quickly at AMF that I couldn't get at an Regional nowadays... Turbine PIC time!

Go AMF!!!

If the OP got his ATP (but no type rating), it would open many doors on the business aviation side of the industry, even in the current environment. Many corporate operators won't consider you for a King Air PIC or even light jet SIC position without an ATP. You likely also wouldn't be qualified for direct-entry cargo turboprop PIC jobs without an ATP.

Back during the recent "boom times", you would have been qualified for any fractional operator EXCEPT for the fact you didn't have an ATP. Right now, you'd be easily insurable as PIC on most any light jet with your times...but again, no ATP and therefore fewer folks willing to consider you for employment.

IMO, buying a type rating with no previous or looming time in type is a waste of money (especially if one says they can't survive on their regional FO compensation)..but paying to knock out an ATP ride isn't. Besides, if you're instrument proficient (and as an airline pilot I assume you are) you should be able to find any rental Dutchess/Seminole/Seneca for $250-300/hr and get brushed up in just 3 or so hours for the ride.

Clowdsurfer64,

First let me say thank you for all you have done for very many in the industry. I can tell your username was not chosen by you but probably set up for you by one of your sons.

ISA17, I can assure you that the one little piece of free advice that was offered to the pilot earlier was very good advice. It came from a true gentlement that has many years of experience in both the cockpit of several Boeings (including all seats). His restraint has been exhibited by the lack of response to your most recent post. This forum can be a fantastic avenue or tool used to help a career at many levels of experience. Based on both your sarcastic response to a direct question and also the fact that you proudly brag about being a CFI, I am guessing you are still in your twenties. It showed in your post. Not professional at all. It is a shame that forums are used by some as a way to take cheap shots at people or try to show off. I would really enjoy know who you were and to see the look on your face if you ever came across my friends path....Maybe someday when you mature and get the experience and then if your lucky - get an interview at one of the major airlines.....that is why I say you are very lucky that you remain nameless on a forum like this.