Airline Pilot Central Forums - University of North Dakota, or Embry Riddle?

While this thread seemed to start out as UND vs ERAU, it looks to have taken the path of 61 vs 141 as well. For anyone who comes upon this thread in the future looking for information, I'm going to present my thoughts and experiences on both.

61 vs 141
Personally, I've done both. I earned my PPL through 2 separate FBO's in Southern California out of 2 airports. I had great instructors at both FBO's, but there was a lack of structure there that I found at UND.

My experience at UND made me a more disciplined and professional pilot than I feel I would be today had I continued Part 61. From day one at UND, you're introduced to a Standardization manual, QRH, NPH, MEL and many other manuals you'd otherwise not be introduced to until your first 121 ground school. Add to that a proper classroom environment, well laid out syllabus, and if the current proposed rule making goes through, a 500 hour reduction in ATP minimums to get you to an airline faster. That's on top of the reduced Multi engine requirements already in place if you go through a Jet Transition Course (Included in UND's curriculum).

Now, does that justify tacking on an extra $100k in student debt? Let's stop there and look at the actual costs and the ways to save money.

Tuition Cost
First, as has been mentioned in this thread already, you can attend a 2 year school before transferring to UND or ERAU, just like many people do before transferring to an in-state school.

I personally attended the ERAU Extended Campus in Long Beach, CA for 2 years covering my general education classes before I was planning on transferring to ERAU Daytona. All the ERAU extended classes would transfer (Transfer from a community college and your mileage may vary), which was planned to save me almost 2 years of very expensive ERAU tuition. Not to mention the money saved on room & board while living at home. In the end however, I changed course and went to UND, you'll see why shortly. Either way, 90% of my classes still transferred.

If you do decide to attend an ERAU Campus, transferring classes will save you money but tuition there is still abhorrently high as seen below. We're talking Ivy league school prices. In state tuition here isn't an option either since the school is private. This, is why I decided to go to UND instead.

If you stick with nonresident tuition at UND, it's still cheaper than ERAU. But to save even more money , and what a lot of people don't seem to be aware of, is that UND has tuition agreements with over 3/4 of the country(UND Tuition and Fees). Nearly every state west of Illinois has a tuition agreement bringing the tuition close to what you'll likely pay at home. If you're not in one of those western states, you can still achieve in-state tuition with a ND drivers license and after 12 months living in state. That's it.

Now lets compare some schools where other people recommend going to get a degree. I've listed a top ranked school, a party school, and one with great football. All public.

Estimated cost of attendance per year
University of California - Los Angeles
Resident - $28,682
Nonresident - $51,560

Arizona State University
Resident - $22,446
Nonresident - $35,045

University of Alabama
Resident - $12,030
Nonresident - $18,905

Embry Riddle Aeronautical University
Daytona - $42,294
Prescott - $41,770
Worldwide - $7,728

University of North Dakota
Resident - $14,386
Agreement - $17,355
Nonresident - $24,302

Every school across the country is going to have different tuition rates, but at the end of the day, you're really spending about the same, if not less in tuition each year if you choose UND over even in-state schools. ERAU is off the charts, but at this point everyone knows the costs involved.

So tuition difference is negligible, what about flight costs?

Flight Cost
While these costs do differ from the 61 to 141 environment, they're not as significant as people make them out to be..

Just for comparison sake, lets look at estimated costs from UND, ERAU, and from a Part 61 FBO. The FBO costs will change, depending on the state and airport, but this one provided a nice breakdown of costs all the way through commercial multi.

University of North Dakota
Private Pilot w/ 51 hours in C172 G1000- $11,330
Commercial, Multi, Instrument - $33,745
Total Cost - $45,075

Embry Riddle Aeronautical University
Private Pilot - $14,500
Commercial, Multi, Instrument - $34,600
Total Cost - $49,100

Spanaflight - Pierce County, WA
Private Pilot w/ 40 hours in C152 - $9,820
Private Pilot w/ 40 hours in C172 w/o GPS - $10,970
Commercial, Multi, Instrument - $27,424
Total Cost - $37,244-$38,394

While the 61 costs are lower, they used the bare minimum for flight hours in their estimates. Those numbers only go up if you don't get your PPL right at 40 hours, and your Commercial Multi ticket at 250.

UND, and I'm assuming ERAU, use estimates that are a bit more realistic. (My Commerical Multi ticket cost me ~$31,500 at UND which was actually below their estimation.

With the lower costs of training Pt 61, we still have the quality of training received, and the Provisional ATP requirements from an AABI 141 school to offset them.

College Experience
There is a lot to say for having a real college experience, with sporting events, fraternities, and good looking women. These are after all, some of the best years of our lives right?

I can't speak for ERAU's sports or fraternities, but the female ratio does sound abysmal(85% male, 15% female). That would scare any young man away; it sure weighed into my decision to change course.

What about UND? The male to female ratio in the aviation program show percentages similar to ERAU; unlike ERAU however, you have an entire campus to socialize with. The campus ratio is closer to 52% M / 48% F. As long as you don't stay in your room drooling over airplanes all day (do that at any school and you wont fare better), there's plenty of women to meet and socialize with.

What about sports? Sioux Hockey. $104 Million dollar arena. Need I say more?

Degree's outside aviation
There's been a long standing opinion by many that any aviation degree is useless, and you're better off getting a degree in business, liberal arts, engineering, underwater basket weaving...ANYTHING but aviation. Just check the box right?

What value does that degree really have? We've already established getting a degree in anything else is probably going to cost you something similar to a school like UND(short of an online degree).

So the costs are the same, if not more, what else is there? A fallback. Now, if you just got your CFI ticket and suddenly lose your medical, an engineering degree might make for a good backup, but only because you just graduated.

Take that same engineering degree 20 years down the road, you've just been furloughed from XYZ airline. Is that engineering degree going to help land you a job at an engineering firm? "You have no field experience from the last 20 years? I think we'll take the guy who just graduated, thanks for applying though." It's a bleak outlook but a realistic one.

Medical issues and furloughs are big risks in the profession, but having a degree in a separate field mitigates the risk much less than people emphasize.

If the things we dread most, lose a medical or receive a furlough, does happen, you're better off retraining or using your professional connections to re-establish yourself than trying to fall back on a degree from many years prior.

Closing thoughts
This is all just one opinion, and one I may catch flack for, but it's an honest one even if slightly biased. I can't say what the best path for any one person who might stumble upon this thread is, but hopefully it will help at least a few people find the best path for them.

Everyone looking at this profession should make sure they have the passion to stick through the tough times and do all the research they can before making a commitment as long and financially impacting as aviation. In the end, hopefully it all pays off.