as a hobby, or as a career?
03-25-2011, 07:48 AM
#11
Need More Flight Time!
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Flight Simulator X
Posts: 400
SkyWolf,
I'd say get your pilot's certificate by paying CASH and do it as a hobby for now. And if you want to go pro later, you have the option to. Warning: You do not want to have debt as a result of flight training. It is life crippling.
You seem to be a smart guy. Do the math. Go to Airline Pilot Central - HOME and look at the regional airlines' FO pay. Open up Excel and do a cost analysis on how much you will take in, and how much you need to pay out, each month. Keep in mind that there may be days where you might have to shell out $40-100 per night for a hotel room because your airline decided to strand you. Plan 5 years as FO and 5 years as CA as a starting scenario. How quickly you upgrade to CA and how successful you are in the career depends on how close your stars are to full alignment.
Here's something to get you started:
Expenses:
Cell Phone
Car - Insurance
Car - Payment
Car - Gasoline
Car - Maintenance
Crash Pad
Rent
Food
Utilities
Loan - College
Loan - Flight School (if you must, but you've been warned)
Credit Cards
Entertainment
Miscellaneous (toiletries, take a chick out, treat yourself to dinner)
Savings
Investments
Income:
Airline - Pay
Other Sources
2nd Job
3rd Job
4th Job
...
...
Spread this out over the course of 5 years and see what the financial picture looks like. Then do it for 10 years because it's possible you may be at the regional airline for that long. Don't forget to do this again at the major airline you want to end up at. And do the analysis there as well. And if you really want to make yourself sick, compare airline pay over 15 years to an average salaried job at $50,000/year with a 2% year over year increase. I did this once and figured out that if I go airline, I would have lost over $1.5 million in pay over the course of 10 years. Do you need a barf bag yet?
Your mileage may vary, and only you can truly know if the math makes sense. Wanting to fly is the easy part. But as you indicated, having a warm roof over your head is pretty neat too.
I'd say get your pilot's certificate by paying CASH and do it as a hobby for now. And if you want to go pro later, you have the option to. Warning: You do not want to have debt as a result of flight training. It is life crippling.
You seem to be a smart guy. Do the math. Go to Airline Pilot Central - HOME and look at the regional airlines' FO pay. Open up Excel and do a cost analysis on how much you will take in, and how much you need to pay out, each month. Keep in mind that there may be days where you might have to shell out $40-100 per night for a hotel room because your airline decided to strand you. Plan 5 years as FO and 5 years as CA as a starting scenario. How quickly you upgrade to CA and how successful you are in the career depends on how close your stars are to full alignment.
Here's something to get you started:
Expenses:
Cell Phone
Car - Insurance
Car - Payment
Car - Gasoline
Car - Maintenance
Crash Pad
Rent
Food
Utilities
Loan - College
Loan - Flight School (if you must, but you've been warned)
Credit Cards
Entertainment
Miscellaneous (toiletries, take a chick out, treat yourself to dinner)
Savings
Investments
Income:
Airline - Pay
Other Sources
2nd Job
3rd Job
4th Job
...
...
Spread this out over the course of 5 years and see what the financial picture looks like. Then do it for 10 years because it's possible you may be at the regional airline for that long. Don't forget to do this again at the major airline you want to end up at. And do the analysis there as well. And if you really want to make yourself sick, compare airline pay over 15 years to an average salaried job at $50,000/year with a 2% year over year increase. I did this once and figured out that if I go airline, I would have lost over $1.5 million in pay over the course of 10 years. Do you need a barf bag yet?
Your mileage may vary, and only you can truly know if the math makes sense. Wanting to fly is the easy part. But as you indicated, having a warm roof over your head is pretty neat too.
03-25-2011, 09:04 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 124
re:
I am really glad that some today's students or future flight training students are actually taking a step back and re-thinking their options.
To the OP: Don't let it get you down too much. The point of this forum is just to relate experiences. The reality can be much more different than the dream. It may suck to get a degree in something you are not 100% passionate about, but down the road when you have some excess cash and can pay for training yourself, you'll be much better off.
And you don't necessarily have to be a doctor or lawyer to afford to fly on your own. Any decent paying job will get you there, as long as you are smart about money. I am able to support a family of three on a single income (not that much either), and put a large chunk in savings every month, by making smart decisions with what I have and not splurging.
To the OP: Don't let it get you down too much. The point of this forum is just to relate experiences. The reality can be much more different than the dream. It may suck to get a degree in something you are not 100% passionate about, but down the road when you have some excess cash and can pay for training yourself, you'll be much better off.
And you don't necessarily have to be a doctor or lawyer to afford to fly on your own. Any decent paying job will get you there, as long as you are smart about money. I am able to support a family of three on a single income (not that much either), and put a large chunk in savings every month, by making smart decisions with what I have and not splurging.
03-25-2011, 09:59 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,383
Originally Posted by Flying Ninja
SkyWolf,
Keep in mind that there may be days where you might have to shell out $40-100 per night for a hotel room because your airline decided to strand you.
Keep in mind that there may be days where you might have to shell out $40-100 per night for a hotel room because your airline decided to strand you.
When the heck has that ever happened? Keep in mind i've been in the corporate/fractional world my whole career.
03-25-2011, 10:06 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by Learflyer
When the heck has that ever happened? Keep in mind i've been in the corporate/fractional world my whole career.
03-25-2011, 10:37 AM
#15
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 51
@SkyHigh
At least I'm up on that front. I don't care where I live (I've never felt tied down to once place. If I could live in a different place each time my lease was up, hastle of moving aside, I would. I like being in different places all the time), and my only concern with how is "what if I want to upgrade my standards someday?" I'm cool with my cheap apartment near the city for now, but I don't know if I'll have the same mindset 5, 10 years down the road. Family's not a problem - I never wanted kids.
It'd be nice if my city were a base... it's got a lower-than-average cost of living... I was doing some comparing of a few common pilot base cities. (Indianapolis isn't one of them. Why not? At least for FedEx? We have the 2nd largest hub here. FedEx's facility is at LEAST 3 times the size of the entire public terminal at IND)
How fares the charter pilot segment of aviation careers? Or corporate? It seems like it might be a bit less effected by economic bumps than commercial airlines. (please do correct me if I'm wrong). That's something I'm looking into.
Also, the flight school nearby... with the prices they've listed, it -seems- like it'd cost about $24k for 70 hours instruction (and everything with that), instrument rating, and commercial lisence. Is that realistic? They offer as little as 40 hours for private, up to 70 (though I can't imagine they'd say no to someone who wants to fork over the cash for more than that). Perhaps I should post that question over in the Flight Training section.
Anyway, how's the charter/air taxi (or corporate) part looking? And where might I find out more about it?
Is it possible to do that "on the side", as in, when I time time away from my regular job? If it goes well, I suppose I could always quit the pedestrian job, and if my flight career tanks, I'll still have a degree AND experience in the non-aviation field.
Corporate would be a lot different than charter, I'm assuming. It doesn't sound like something you can do part-time.
@Flying Ninja
That's sound financial planning advice for any career, really. Thanks for point out the math that pertains to being a career pilot, though.
Thanks for all the advice so far guys. It's been really helpful. I love flying, but unfortunately it doesn't seem anyone pays for you to simply like what you do. (Same could be said for police officers, fire fighters, and teachers, really... terrible pay, long/irregular hours, but hard to find someone who hates what they do.)
At least I'm up on that front. I don't care where I live (I've never felt tied down to once place. If I could live in a different place each time my lease was up, hastle of moving aside, I would. I like being in different places all the time), and my only concern with how is "what if I want to upgrade my standards someday?" I'm cool with my cheap apartment near the city for now, but I don't know if I'll have the same mindset 5, 10 years down the road. Family's not a problem - I never wanted kids.
It'd be nice if my city were a base... it's got a lower-than-average cost of living... I was doing some comparing of a few common pilot base cities. (Indianapolis isn't one of them. Why not? At least for FedEx? We have the 2nd largest hub here. FedEx's facility is at LEAST 3 times the size of the entire public terminal at IND)
How fares the charter pilot segment of aviation careers? Or corporate? It seems like it might be a bit less effected by economic bumps than commercial airlines. (please do correct me if I'm wrong). That's something I'm looking into.
Also, the flight school nearby... with the prices they've listed, it -seems- like it'd cost about $24k for 70 hours instruction (and everything with that), instrument rating, and commercial lisence. Is that realistic? They offer as little as 40 hours for private, up to 70 (though I can't imagine they'd say no to someone who wants to fork over the cash for more than that). Perhaps I should post that question over in the Flight Training section.
Anyway, how's the charter/air taxi (or corporate) part looking? And where might I find out more about it?
Is it possible to do that "on the side", as in, when I time time away from my regular job? If it goes well, I suppose I could always quit the pedestrian job, and if my flight career tanks, I'll still have a degree AND experience in the non-aviation field.
Corporate would be a lot different than charter, I'm assuming. It doesn't sound like something you can do part-time.
@Flying Ninja
That's sound financial planning advice for any career, really. Thanks for point out the math that pertains to being a career pilot, though.
Thanks for all the advice so far guys. It's been really helpful. I love flying, but unfortunately it doesn't seem anyone pays for you to simply like what you do. (Same could be said for police officers, fire fighters, and teachers, really... terrible pay, long/irregular hours, but hard to find someone who hates what they do.)
03-25-2011, 11:54 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
As far as corporate and charter being more stable than the airlines, I'd say that's definitely not true. I used to fly charter for a company that had 3 King Airs, 2 Lear 55s, and a Navajo. Shortly after I left, they were down to one King Air 90 and laid everybody off.
I've been flying corporate for the past several years, and I've known many, many people that have lost their corporate jobs through this last downturn. We were VERY close to losing our airplane as well, and our flight department went from four pilots to two.
Although my job is probably safe for awhile, I've decided to head to the airlines and will be starting with a regional next month. My hope is that eventually I can get on with a stable carrier a few years from now, and will have decent pay/stability that can be challenging to find in charter/corporate.
I was also a career changer, and quit my engineering job in 2007 to be a full time CFI. It was a huge paycut, so I made sure I had no debt prior to making the plunge. It's been a heck of a fun ride so far, and I'm still glad I did it. But if I had any debt going into this, I would probably be absolutely miserable. Seriously, if you decide to fly professionally, do not start out with debt. It will take longer, but you will be much better off if you pay cash for your flight training. Also, you need to be willing to move almost anywhere the first few years.
I've been flying corporate for the past several years, and I've known many, many people that have lost their corporate jobs through this last downturn. We were VERY close to losing our airplane as well, and our flight department went from four pilots to two.
Although my job is probably safe for awhile, I've decided to head to the airlines and will be starting with a regional next month. My hope is that eventually I can get on with a stable carrier a few years from now, and will have decent pay/stability that can be challenging to find in charter/corporate.
I was also a career changer, and quit my engineering job in 2007 to be a full time CFI. It was a huge paycut, so I made sure I had no debt prior to making the plunge. It's been a heck of a fun ride so far, and I'm still glad I did it. But if I had any debt going into this, I would probably be absolutely miserable. Seriously, if you decide to fly professionally, do not start out with debt. It will take longer, but you will be much better off if you pay cash for your flight training. Also, you need to be willing to move almost anywhere the first few years.
03-25-2011, 12:03 PM
#17
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
SkyWolf
Skywolf,
I think you are missing a few things in regards to your flight training. It seems like you are only using quotes for the cost for the pvt, inst and commercial.
In a part 61 school a pilot needs 250 hours to become eligible for the commercial license and 190 at a 141 school. In addition you can count on it taking longer than the stated minimum hours to complete each part.
In addition most go on to get a CFI, instrument instructor and multi-engine ratings.
In summary the costs to become a fully trained and marketable pilot at even the lowest level is significantly higher than what you have stated.
At my home town airport they quote 80K.
Skyhigh
I think you are missing a few things in regards to your flight training. It seems like you are only using quotes for the cost for the pvt, inst and commercial.
In a part 61 school a pilot needs 250 hours to become eligible for the commercial license and 190 at a 141 school. In addition you can count on it taking longer than the stated minimum hours to complete each part.
In addition most go on to get a CFI, instrument instructor and multi-engine ratings.
In summary the costs to become a fully trained and marketable pilot at even the lowest level is significantly higher than what you have stated.
At my home town airport they quote 80K.
Skyhigh
03-25-2011, 12:09 PM
#18
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Other stuff
Skywolf,
In regards to your other question:
Some people do work part time as charter pilots or flight instructors. I am a part time flight instructor however it does not make sense from a financial standpoint. The wages are low and jobs infrequent.
People mostly do it for fun and to remain current. If you care about your finances at all aviation does not make much sense most of the time.
Skyhigh
In regards to your other question:
Some people do work part time as charter pilots or flight instructors. I am a part time flight instructor however it does not make sense from a financial standpoint. The wages are low and jobs infrequent.
People mostly do it for fun and to remain current. If you care about your finances at all aviation does not make much sense most of the time.
Skyhigh
03-25-2011, 04:58 PM
#20
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 51
@wrxpilot - thanks for the info. I didn't know, s'why I asked!
What other options are there in aviation? I know that's a broad question, but I might as well look at all the options before saying no to all of it.
It still kindda breaks my heart to think I won't be going to college for my training. I wonder how hard it would be to double-major? (or how expensive...)
SkyHigh - 24k seemed too low to be reasonable. I'm guessing they're only counting hours of instruction. I'd have to rent a plane for all the rest of the hours, huh?
I always counted on it taking longer, though. If it's not on a set schedule like a college program, then life tends to happen between.
I wonder how I can get an accurate quote. Seems like something that'd be hard to get an honest answer on from the flight school - they don't want to risk being held to a quote.
I'm going to one of the colleges that offer Prof. Flight Tech. as a degree program, for a tour. While I don't hear anyone saying getting a degree in aviation is a GOOD idea, the guy from the program I'm meeting with doesn't need to know that intention. What are some questions I might ask him about the program? Or the industry? I think I'm going to get more honest answers here, but if the resource is there, why not use it?
I still want to fly. I'll figure something out...
I'm so glad I'm planning this now, rather than realizing it all a few hours out of college.
What other options are there in aviation? I know that's a broad question, but I might as well look at all the options before saying no to all of it.
It still kindda breaks my heart to think I won't be going to college for my training. I wonder how hard it would be to double-major? (or how expensive...)
SkyHigh - 24k seemed too low to be reasonable. I'm guessing they're only counting hours of instruction. I'd have to rent a plane for all the rest of the hours, huh?
I always counted on it taking longer, though. If it's not on a set schedule like a college program, then life tends to happen between.
I wonder how I can get an accurate quote. Seems like something that'd be hard to get an honest answer on from the flight school - they don't want to risk being held to a quote.
I'm going to one of the colleges that offer Prof. Flight Tech. as a degree program, for a tour. While I don't hear anyone saying getting a degree in aviation is a GOOD idea, the guy from the program I'm meeting with doesn't need to know that intention. What are some questions I might ask him about the program? Or the industry? I think I'm going to get more honest answers here, but if the resource is there, why not use it?
I still want to fly. I'll figure something out...
I'm so glad I'm planning this now, rather than realizing it all a few hours out of college.
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