Taxi runup clearance
 

Id like to get an opinion of the proper procedure for runup and taxi clearance.

This situation occured at slow class C airport.

I usually plan on doing my runup short of the departure runway if it slow and no one behind me. If its busy Ill use the huge expance of pavement off the taxi way opposite the departure runway. (runup area,holding area...)


I get the "runway 28L taxi via C B"

I get to the end of the taxiway and there is a GA aircraft in the runup area as well as a regional jet being given taxi clearance to 28L as well.

I figure I will use the runup area given the regional jet coming this way as well as the other GA aircraft doing his runup.

To get to the runup area and position myself next to the other GA aircraft requires me to cross two pavement markings.

First one, (taxi way edge markings indicating opposite side is pavement used by aircraft)

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second one,(indicating barrier between movement and non-movement sides)
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________________________


Myself and other GA aircraft crossed both of these markings into runup area.


Runup done.

Now, Im confused.


I believe myself to be in a non-movement area and am uncertain about entering the movement area again without confirming with ATC. Other aircraft exits the runup area and holds short 28L as he sees RJ coming down taxi way with no call to tower/ground (both combined) Calls ready for takeoff and ATC clears him for takeoff.

With RJ getting closer on taxiway, I really dont want to cause an issue and call ATC with "request continue taxi 28L from runup area."

I wait.....
RJ gets closer and passes me on taxiway and holds short 28L and is subsequently cleared for takeoff.

ATC comes back and tells me I dont need to ask for that and to hold short 28L.

I hold short 28L and time two minutes for wake turbulance. Right as the clock hits two minutes and im going to call ready for departure, ATC comes on and wants to know if im ready yet and I say yes.

They come back with "that is a call you need to make. Cleared for takeoff."

I depart.

Did I violate my intial taxi clearance by exiting taxiway to runup area?

Did my intial taxi clearance allow me to cross back over to movement area?

Is this ATC and pilots being lazy?

Am I ill-informed :0)

When I finally got short of 28L and wanted to wait two minutes after the RJ, does ATC expect me to tell them that. I just figured Id wait and call ready when I was ready? No traffic in line behind me.

I can imagine if I called "xxx holding short 28L" and then they said cleared for takeoff, and I came back with "im going to wait two minutes" they would be annoyed. Or perhaps they were expecting me to say "xxx holding short 28L" and they would tell me to wait two minutes.

No.

Yes.

You are referring to which item?

You are expected to know how far you are cleared to taxi when you receive a clearance, so yes if you want to be fussy about it I would say you are a little rusty on taxi procedures, but at least you had the good sense to ask ATC what to do. AOPA has free computer-based modules on its website, we all need a review every now and then.

AOPA Interactive Courses

No. They know you get two minutes, it's their job to know. However if they fail to do it for some reason (brain lapse) then you should demand the time. It's your right.

One thing I do is use the airplane itself as a huge flag telling tower what I want to do. That gives them two signs rather than one. So I will wait until the last few seconds before I am ready to take off to move the airplane to the hold short line at the runway, for example. This way they see my airplane and they hear my call at the same time and put two and two together- this airplane goes with this radio call.

You do not need to ask for the time delay. You can avoid the whole issue by waiting a little while to get to the hold short as stated above. Or you can just ask for the time if they forgot for some reason.

I know its kinda picky, but how would u know the initial clearance included the option to leave the movement area and then come back? Where is that stated or infered from in the regs?

Be reasonable here--the clearance was to hold short, do so. Conduct your "run up" checks, mags and prop, and then call ready for departure with tower. It is really that simple, until you call "ready", they don't care unless you spend an inordinate amount of time checking the mags and prop. You might be able to check them on the taxi out, if you have o go uphill.

GF

It's assumed that you will be going through your run-up at the additional pavement adjacent to the hold-short area. This is why that area is there. If you taxi to the hold-short which includes a run-up area then you've obeyed the taxi clearance that was given to you. If you call up, "I'd like to spend a minute going through my pre-take-off checklist, the controller will simply scratch his head and think to himself, ok....what's your point? No ****! At least most would. Most GA traffic do their run-ups, most none-GA do not however and simply taxi directly to the hold-short and request clearance to take-off. If that's the case, let them pass, give it a second to let the turbulence pass and keep your distance but line up behind the ERJ, you can stay on ground till the your #1 for take-off or wait on tower, either way.
Once ERJ has taken off, call tower, ready for departure and it may be smart just to mention that you are taking a minute to wait for the wake turb to subside, just don't really need to wait too long but at least he's tracking why your ready but still sitting.
In the end, your the PIC, I've seen someone park behind an ERJ while driving a C172R because he was told to taxi to hold-short behind the ERJ, but instead of keeping his distance he was about the same distance he would normally be behind a GA. Once that ERJ ran his engine up, prior to crossing the hold-short that thrust blew the Cessna half a field away. Everyone was fine inside but the aircraft was totaled. So, if you want to sit in the run-up area just a little longer and wait for the ERJ to leave, it's your call and you don't gave to gain permission to do it.

I totally agree with everything above. As far as the phraseology goes, I think the safe thing to do when there are other aircraft around you is to just stay put and call "ready for departure, in sequence."

ATC should then give you your sequence and will tell you when you can pull up to the hold short line.

This way you won't aggressively cut into a jet taxiing straight for the hold short line or leave the run-up area at the same time as another GA aircraft.

Be safe out there! :cool:

When I depart out of a towered airport, I have an airport diagram handy and intimately familiarize with it. Some airports can be traps in that there might be crossing runways that can inadvertently cause you to pass the 2 solid lines. It might as well end up you having to call the tower, no good.
If you have to do a full runup, just pull in to the runup area, position aircraft into the wind, be considerate about other GA aircraft and maintain a safe distance from them. Be aware of your prop blast and position the ship accordingly. Do not spend a great deal of time looking in, make sure your aircraft isn't moving.
Also if you are flying solo, don't ever try to write down a departure clearance while taxiing. It is a big pet peeve of mine when ground control starts going, "Cessna xxx, departure frequency xxx, squawk xxx, etc." It's simply not safe to do so. Just tell them to standby and advise that you will let them know when you are ready to copy your clearance. Be safe, and like Cub said, a great way to review those procedures is through AOPA.

As someone who flies out of a very busy single runway airport with tons of training and corporate operations, please use the run-up area, that's what it's there for, and it leaves space for us to taxi by if we're ready immediately and ATC can work us in. And it's a bit of insurance against your engine shelling out during run-up (seen it happen) and you block the taxiway.

I was trying to find it in the 7110.65, but no joy. Basically I remember reading that turbines are assumed ready for departure when they get to the runway, and pistons are assumed to require a runup. Unless you're departing a class B, I'm pretty sure the controllers expected you to do your runup then get back to them.

Some of this info is located in the AIM, para. 4-3-14.

I believe the answer to the OP's question has been given: pull over, do your runup, then change to tower frequency and call ready. The controller can then let you know if you should move up or follow somebody.

Another option (?)
 

I've done my runup while still on the FBO's ramp, only because it was a huge ramp and I would not be in anyone's way.

Engine start
Get ATIS/Clearance and program GPS while engine warms
Taxi to "secluded" point on FBO ramp and point tail appropriately (blast fence w/no aircraft parked behind me
Runup
Taxi to edge of FBO ramp and contact ground.

Any thoughts on this procedure?

Thanks
Former Mooney driver. :(

Nothing wrong with it that I can see. Different strokes and all that...

Only think I'd add is when contacting ground, at least at those few airports where you do not switch to Tower yourself before takeoff, let them know you'll be ready to go when you reach the runway and won't need a run-up.

Ya, I absolutely love those places. No way could you know that would be the plan prior to taxiing out (like a NOTAM or something on the ATIS).

On a carbed engine I wouldn't do it...inefficient fuel flow at lower power settings, carbon buildup, etc. On a fuel injected I wouldn't think it'd be a problem but I'd at least drag the brakes to cycle the mags near the hold short line.

I only know of three airports where calling ground when ready for takeoff (after run-up) rather than Tower is SOP. KAPA, KORL and KVNY. I've been to the first two; I've heard about KVNY from others. In the 2 where I've been, it's clearly stated on the ATIS.

CMA. I was a controller there. Not on the ATIS.

One thing to note as the OP mentioned twr and gnd were combined so that the OP probably heard the T/O clearance while on gnd control. So if the RJ is still on the taxiway behind you, don't jump out ahead of him, you made the right move there.

One thing that drives me nuts is people calling ready for takeoff from the runup pad while stationary. If you're not at the hold-short line or use "ready at the end" you're not for takeoff.

Interesting. No big deal for the pilots but sounds like a lot of extra work for local controllers, telling pilots who use the more common procedure to switch back to Ground.

I agree,

Its a ways from the runup area to the hold short line. Finishing the runup in the runup area is not "ready for departure."

Throw in some other traffic in runup area and some traffic coming down taxiway, I feel its important to understand exactly what is proper.

Not to mention the runup area being a non-movement area.


So I guess my only outstanding question is concerning the orignal taxi clearance and what exactly it allows me to do regarding my positioning for a runup.

I used to train at a Class C and this brought back some memories! Here is how we conducted the runups with ground and hopefully it will be helpful.

All of the GA airplanes parked in one large area. I would normally call ground once I started up and would request a taxi clearance and also state I needed a runup.

There were two runup pads on the field. One was at the end of runway 28, so if going to that end ground would simply clear me to taxi to runway 28 and do my runup at the end of runway

After doing the runup here, I pulled up to the hold short line, switched to tower, and advised ready for departure.

The other runup pad was near the end of runway 10 but was off to the side and butted up to some hangars. If using this pad, ground would ask for me to call before continuing taxi. I think they asked this because I had to merge back onto the original taxiway in order to get to the runway, and they did not want to risk me screwing up their traffic flow.

Once finished, I would advise ground and they cleared me to taxi the rest of the way. Again, once I arrived at the hold short point I switched to tower and advised ready to depart.


...The moral of the story is if ground simply gave me a taxi clearance to the runway and no specific instructions to call them, I would complete the runup and taxi to the hold short line without further calls and then switch to tower. I only made calls to ground along the way if they asked me to.

Where it would bite the Local control hard is when a Cessna taxied up to the hold short line (from run-up) without calling ground, and they were IFR (and of course said nothing to Local like, "Cessna 123, holding short runway 26, IFR to Podunk".

The ground control only passed an IFR flight plan to Local when they called from the runup (unless it was a jet).

More than one got off the ground without an IFR release (transparent to the pilot; a serious operational error for the controllers involved).

Releases and the optimum departure sequence are the reasons you should call ready from the block. without moving up. It allows the local control to put you in the best place in line, or even keep you out of the line if necessary.