The fastest way down
#21
wizepilot
I don't know if he was pulling your chain, but he was certainly foolhardy and not very wise about flying jet aircraft. First, anything close to a catastrophic decompression raises the real chance of the structure being damaged--not a situation you would want to be rolling inverting and pulling. Maintain the airspeed at the time of failure and go down slowly. At least one B707 wa lost when it had an explosive decompression due to a bomb and the crew did the classic "high dive" and ripped the tail off.
Second, doing aerobatics like that in a plane not tested or cert'd for them is asking for HUGE trouble. Too many incidents to mention here--several Hawkers have been rolled with nasty structural damage, for one.
Third, I suspect a Lear pointed straight down would not have enough drag not to get into a serious overspeed or get seriously damaged. Overspeeds in Lears are proven killers--loads of examples there.
GF
I don't know if he was pulling your chain, but he was certainly foolhardy and not very wise about flying jet aircraft. First, anything close to a catastrophic decompression raises the real chance of the structure being damaged--not a situation you would want to be rolling inverting and pulling. Maintain the airspeed at the time of failure and go down slowly. At least one B707 wa lost when it had an explosive decompression due to a bomb and the crew did the classic "high dive" and ripped the tail off.
Second, doing aerobatics like that in a plane not tested or cert'd for them is asking for HUGE trouble. Too many incidents to mention here--several Hawkers have been rolled with nasty structural damage, for one.
Third, I suspect a Lear pointed straight down would not have enough drag not to get into a serious overspeed or get seriously damaged. Overspeeds in Lears are proven killers--loads of examples there.
GF
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
I had a boss many years ago who was rated in the Lear. He told me (not sure if this was BS or not) that when they practiced getting down to altitude from a catastrophic decompression, this was way before simulators, Lear 20 series, that they pulled the power, rolled the airplane inverted, dropped the gear and out with the speed brakes. This way going into it inverted, as the nose came down, they would only pull positive G's. He told me this story once, but like I said, I did not know if he was pulling my chain.
I'll stick with the procedures established by the manufacturer to meet certification guidelines.
#24
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 165
A rapid descent at any bank angle... Are you flying it in circles or kicking the rudder in to go straight down in a slip ?
In jets I'd presume all rapid descents are in circles because slipping a wing like that could be asking for trouble.
In jets I'd presume all rapid descents are in circles because slipping a wing like that could be asking for trouble.
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 276
wizepilot
I don't know if he was pulling your chain, but he was certainly foolhardy and not very wise about flying jet aircraft. First, anything close to a catastrophic decompression raises the real chance of the structure being damaged--not a situation you would want to be rolling inverting and pulling. Maintain the airspeed at the time of failure and go down slowly. At least one B707 wa lost when it had an explosive decompression due to a bomb and the crew did the classic "high dive" and ripped the tail off.
Second, doing aerobatics like that in a plane not tested or cert'd for them is asking for HUGE trouble. Too many incidents to mention here--several Hawkers have been rolled with nasty structural damage, for one.
Third, I suspect a Lear pointed straight down would not have enough drag not to get into a serious overspeed or get seriously damaged. Overspeeds in Lears are proven killers--loads of examples there.
GF
I don't know if he was pulling your chain, but he was certainly foolhardy and not very wise about flying jet aircraft. First, anything close to a catastrophic decompression raises the real chance of the structure being damaged--not a situation you would want to be rolling inverting and pulling. Maintain the airspeed at the time of failure and go down slowly. At least one B707 wa lost when it had an explosive decompression due to a bomb and the crew did the classic "high dive" and ripped the tail off.
Second, doing aerobatics like that in a plane not tested or cert'd for them is asking for HUGE trouble. Too many incidents to mention here--several Hawkers have been rolled with nasty structural damage, for one.
Third, I suspect a Lear pointed straight down would not have enough drag not to get into a serious overspeed or get seriously damaged. Overspeeds in Lears are proven killers--loads of examples there.
GF
#27
Speaking for Cessna 182s, you fly in circles doing a full slip with nose slightly above the horizon. So a left one would be, left wing tip on the ground using ailerons, full right rudder to the stop to make a slip. Pull the yoke to adjust g's but adjust ailerons a bit too, no hard rule on that but technically g's go to infinity at 90 degrees according to the math and we don't want that, while an outright dive will overspeed the airframe pretty fast, so you are treading a fairly fine line near 90 degrees of bank. It's a walk and chew gum at the same time kind of a thing and I used to train new pilots to do it with about half of them washing out of this very maneuver. I never thought it was that hard to do personally, and I am not hero pilot either, but many guys would get un-nerved about an extended unusual attitude and they would often screw it up. Since the maneuver was at the limits of the airframe and screwups could not be tolerated we generally had to fire them if they did not get it pretty quick. That said, I know many jump pilots used this maneuver for decades without issue, although from what I hear it is getting less popular to do it at drop zones because the early 182s they use are wearing out and the last few thousand hours can only be extracted by gentle means.
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
I don't mean this disrespectfully as I've never flown jumpers, but high load factors coupled with maximum sideslip sound like a recipe for problems unless the pilots have aerobatic experience. Is this technique common?
#29
The maneuver is as good as the pilot and yes, it has been done for ages in C182s. RickT86 or one of the other former jump pilots will tell you. You do this maneuver 30 times a day from 14k down to 1k for years at a time, not a stressed rivet in sight. I worry about pilots who have no feeling for things more than those who do and fly using their experience, knowledge. common sense and intuition. Fly like you love it and know what you are doing. No problems that way, none at all. What are the g's telling you? What are the airframe sounds telling you? How do the flight controls react? How would you feel if you were the airplane right now? What does the science tell you? Does the science agree with your experience? Why or why not? That is the way to think about any performance maneuver. Never fly mechanically.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 01-04-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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