UND
 

Hi
I'm a senior in high school and just got accepted to UND :D, planning to go for commercial aviation possibly with a minor in airport management or aeronautical engineering. Just wondering if there is anything u guys think I should know about them, opinions on the school (please no like "oh they suck" or crap like that), opportunities, etc...

Some things u should know about me:
I will be entering college with my ppl (no attachments). I visited and love the school, love their operations, the opportunities too. I just would like to get some pilots views on them. I would like to eventually get into an airline or cargo, thinking about instructing and possibly flying for the guard out of college to build hours but I would be open minded for any job that gets me hours and money :P

A MINOR in Aeronautical Engineering while MAJORING in Aviation?
Also - if you will use the search function and type in UND, Titles only, you will probably find triple digit threads with all of your questions asked and answered numerous times over.

USMCFLYR

Major in Aeronautical Engineering if you can handle it. That will be infinitely more useful to you later in life than a major in airport management or anything flying related.

Words of wisdom^^^. You will have a degree that will carry you through an entire career if you major in Aerospace Engineering. Not so much if you major in "Aviation" or "Professional Pilot Technology" or what have you. In fact, I would recommend not getting any kind of aviation-related degree unless it is in Aerospace Engineering. Even majoring in business and taking the flight labs on the side for your ratings is a better idea.

It sounds like you have a lot of reading to do about the profession you are pursuing. ;)

UND
 

^^^yup^^^
I have an "aviation" degree that is completely worthless. Get a degree that will serve you when, not if, you you cannot fly. I would suggest any type of engineering degree.

The more diverse you are now, the better off you'll be. There are thousands on these boards that will agree. Help yourself and your future family now. FWIW.

That's actually why I joined this forum, but I tell u, my passion stands in flying. I want to be a pilot, have since I was 2. I have been doing a lot of reading on the industry, nothing's gona turn me away from it. Nothing. Not the furloughs, not the pay, not the sacrifices. This is what I want to do.

UND
 

Really the only reason I want to get any other training in college is in case I get a bad medical or the industry goes comepletely down the toilet

Just get in and get out of college plus fly and go to classes in the summer. Get your time asap and get onto the regionals/cargo -> majors if that's your career goal, seniority and timing is everything. Network network network. Aviation is a small world. Don't burn bridges. Think long-term. Enjoy the ride.

A few threads you might want to read:

shiney jet syndrome - Google Search

UND - Google Search

Scroll down to the bottom of this article and play around with the calculator
Airline Pilot Central - Handling College Loan Repayment

A new aspect to consider that has become a factor in the last year is the change to part 121 airline entry requirements. It used to be that you could get hired at a 121 carrier with as few as 250 flight hours (although it was typically between 400-1000 hours at peak entry level hiring). New federal rules will require 1500 hours to be hired as a co-pilot at a 121 carrier. You need to be aware of this hurdle, and more important, have funding in place to allow you to go all the way.

I'm part of a growing group of experienced pilots who cannot recommend this career path. While I admire your enthusiasm and interest, and I certainly don't want to squash your dreams, I urge you to look past the emotional buy-in and look at the opportunity cost. To invest $75,000 - $115,000 to pursue a job that starts at $18,000/yr makes no financial sense. Over a career you could do better financially to go to trade school and become an electrician or plumber (and have WAY more weekends, birthdays, and holidays off). Whichever path you chose, keep reading, and reading, and reading. There are hundreds of threads disputing the pros and cons of heading off to a university pilot program - good luck.

UND
 

Yea, thanks for the advice, all of u

You haven't researched enough if you believe UND has an Aerospace engineering program. They have many engineering options, but that isn't one of them...

Do the aviation program as a minor. Get something else on the diploma as a major...

UND
 

Oh...ok thank u

That's why I tell my son. 4 yrs as a Naval Machinist Mate and he then can decide what he wants to do. The 4 that I know are smart as hell when building fixing and creating something from nothing. All are very successful in life.
Cheers

The undergraduate program of study prepares students to practice all aspects of mechanical engineering providing diverse employment
opportunities in such areas as aircraft and automobile manufacturing, energy generation and distribution, heating and cooling systems, and aerospace research and development. The curriculum includes thermal sciences, mechanical design, and manufacturing processes. An optional Aerospace Focus enables interested students to prepare for an aerospace career and to obtain a private pilot’s license.

I completely agree with everyone else. I have a completely worthless aviation degree. It's not a business degree, it's not an engineering degree, it's really not good for anything. Even airlines don't care what your degree is in, they just want you to have one. I have been out of school six years now and it has been a real tough road. Made 18 grand a year as a flight instructor, then went to the airlines and got furloughed, bounced around some contract jobs, spent 8 months of that time working for a temp agency doing basic assembly work. It would have been really nice to have a business or engineering degree to fall back on.

Is it new? Do you get an actual aerospace engineering degree or are you taking some classes to cover some of the aspects of it? There isn't any Aerospace engineering degree listed... I don't remember that from my time there...

Sounds like you may have a dose of "SJS". The only cure I'm afraid is to "live the dream" and let it crumble around you. I'm relatively new at this too (less than 500TT) but I can tell you that the realities of trying to make a living in this industry are pretty harsh compared to most others. It isn't what it used to be (or so I'm told) and it is definitely more who you know than what you know. Good luck and keep reading. I do seriously suggest not pursuing any degree aviation related. They are worthless and have nothing to do with your ability to safely operate aircraft. Get a degree that will provide you with a life time of possibilities. Not one that narrows the scope of your marketability.

My advice to you Browny is to do what makes YOU happy. Seems like at this moment going to UND and majoring in AVIATION will make you happy. While many on here have valid points, you have to live your life for you.

If you were my son, I would say to go to UND, major in aviation and attempt to get a flight slot in the USCG afterwards.

There are many unemployed people with MBA's, law degrees and engineering degrees. There are also people with said degrees that are gainfully employed and miserable as all get out. The grass is always greener. So, once again, do what makes you happy.

Keep us posted

What does that mean?:confused:

Do not spend upwards of 100,000 on college + flight expenses based on emotions!

I think HSLD in particular has great wisdom across all his posts, this one included.

I'm not saying don't fly for a living or don't go to UND either. But- be rational with large sums of money and the *lifestyle* you are choosing for yourself and anyone close to you.

(Decisions in the cockpit should be based on cool thinking vs emotion, too...how's that for correlation?)

P.S. don't let ANY flight school dazzle you with "pilot shortage" propaganda / crap.

I majored in commercial aviation, flight instructed there, and went to to a regional. I enjoyed my time at UND but going AFROTC would be my do over.

I may be wrong but I believe majoring in aviation management gets you a business degree and you still have the flight courses as part of the curriculum

It was a response to propilots post. UND offers a degree in Mechanical Engineering with an "Aerospace Focus"... whatever that means. I spent all my time over at Odegard and Ryan Hall learning about commercial aviation. It would have been better spent in the engineering building.

UND
 

Thanks, I've been doing some thinking and having a business degree is something I will definitely look into. It sounds much more useful than aviation management or something like that. The reason I would not do afrotc is that it closes too many doors. We have no clue what the industry will be in 4 years. I want to leave that option open that if I impress somebody in college and have a better job opportunity, I can take it. However I talked to a marine recruiter last night about aviation in the navy and marines. Honestly if I come out of college and no major opportunities are presenting themselves I will go navy or marines then to OCS because even if I don't get a pilot slot it will build some money to put towards hours when I get back. Besides, I've always wanted to serve.

I understand what you mean - and the 10 year commitment is no joking matter, and likely not all will spent flying so a prospective candidate had better know that s/he wants to serve and not *just* fly. In other matters, the military rarely closes doors and opens many, many more.

Make sure you are talking to a Marine Officer Selection Officer (OSO) and not a Marine Recruiter if you are interested in being a Pilot or Marine NFO.

USMCFLYR

What USMCFLYR said... ^^^

You REALLY need to read some more and understand the decisions that are before you. I too would recommend the military route if you truly want to fly and get your training for free. I wish, looking back, that I was more interested in this route at a younger age. You will get the best training in the world, make life-long connections and friends, and have the privilege of serving and performing important missions. I have a couple friends that are now flying USAF that started school/training at the same time as me. I actually have more hours than they do, but one if flying F-16's and the other is flying Strike Eagles. I'd much rather be doing that then putting around in a 172 all morning/afternoon haha. Just think about what you really want for yourself in 10 to 15 years... Where you really want to be. And make it happen. No roads are easy, but some are better than others. Good luck.

I'll agree with much of what you said except the above bolded.
It isn't FREE. You pay a price for that flight training - even in the peacetime military. You WORK for 10 years MINIMUM for that training.

USMCFLYR

UND
 

Yes, in the next ten or to fifteen years I would like to see myself in the pilot seat, to be honest, I don't at this point really know where. I'm just trying to figure which route (civilian or military) would be best. I'm sure as I start to network and talk to people throughout college things will, hopefully, start to clear up. This guy I've met a few times, is a Continental 777 Captain, I'm definitely going to talk to him.

I meant from a financial standpoint... Military pilots/aviators give up much more than some realize so I can see how from a certain stand point you wouldn't consider it "free".

And I understand that people who fly solely in the military don't ever write a check for the instruction, but on the other hand your TIME is worth money right? Isn't that a common gripe of professional airline pilots? They aren't being compensated for some of their TIME?
In that context, a military only pilot has given 10 years of their TIME for that training.

USMCFLYR

Yes... But in a lot of cases that 10 years is spent training/flying on the world's coolest airframes, flying fast/low as hell, and getting to blow stuff up. I know every job is just a job after a while, but that sounds like a pretty fair trade-off to me ;)

Here is the only comparison you need to make:

In the military, you will get the best aviation training in the world for free. I’ve been through both military and civilian training and I can tell you it isn’t even close. While you are in military training, you get paid more than any of the civilian RJ pilots who are probably also in a lot of debt from their training. After your military training, you have a guaranteed job for 10 years compared to having to fight and compete for an RJ job that pays half of what you will make as a 1st LT in the military. During that 10 years, you will get to build experience, just like the RJ guys spend 10 years doing, but you will be getting paid a lot more and the flying is WAY better. Lifestyle in the Air Force at least is no more painful than the airline pilot lifestyle. Probably even less painful for most. Go check out the military pay scales to prove my point and don't forget to add the flight pay. At the 10 year point, you are making around $100K and you get free health care. This is not to mention the amazing experiences you'll have traveling around the world. After the 10 years, you'll be pretty much equal in the eyes of the airlines as that RJ guy who spent the last 10 years making no money, sitting on his hands in the RJ and spending thousands of nights in anysmalltown, USA. Also, the airlines know that military training is unmatched. No offense to the pilots that chose to go the civilian route, I respect your commitment and drive. But this seems like a no brainer.

My senior year of high school I actually told an Air Force Academy hockey recruiter that he was wasting his time because I would never be in the military. I just didn’t understand how good of a deal it was. I was in the same position. I wanted to be an airline pilot but I could not afford UND’s training program. Now I am finishing my 10 year military contract with no debt and a bunch of money in the bank. And I have loved 96.69 percent of it. If I am lucky enough to get hired by an airline, I will get to start on something much bigger than an RJ (even as a fighter guy).

Well, there's a difference between "being in the military", and the path lined with gold that you just described. Some of us didn't have the most perfect eyes or whatever and that dream you just dscribed isn't necessarily realistic. I wish the best for everyone, but not everyone can take that path.

I gave up reading the thread after page one with everyone telling you to use the search function so i will post my thoughts on UND.

First i will say go military if you want/can. I was in Airforce ROTC my freshmen year and then dropped because there was 50+ in my class and they told us maybe 3 will become pilots. So i decided to get out because i wanted more control over my future. (Biggest mistake ever) I suggest not going to UND unless you have rich parents to pay for everything. It was a great school and i had a lot of fun. But the debt I racked up going there is not worth becoming an airline pilot. I was accepted to Purdue for their engineering school and then I found out about UND and said why would i go to school for something I didn't plan on doing because I was going to be a pilot. So I went to UND. I graduated in 3.5 years and was in Ground school for Mesaba 14 days after graduation. I thought this was great. Then came time to pay the student loans back. By the time I had to start paying my loans totalled over 150k or monthly payments of about 1300 a month. Starting pay at Mesaba was 1200 a month after all deductions and health insurance etc... You can do the math I could not even make my student loan payments so i had to but them in to forberence and allow over 700 a month of interest to build. Now I am a 5 year FO sitting reserve and might make 40k for the first time in my career. If my wife did not have a good job I would be living in a cardboard box. The reason I am telling you actual numbers is because I hope you and others that are like you think about going to high priced schools like UND. When i was 18 i did not think about how i was going to pay loans back. I just knew i wanted to be a pilot and that was that. I did not know any pilots so i did not know what life actually was like. Good luck in what ever you choose.

Very nice and thoughtful post!

:D I'll agree with you there, but it was never just a job to me. If there were a way to be a civilian contractor still doing teaching at the RAG then I'd be standing in line! The only reason I gave up that *contract* job after the military that was the closest thing to being in the military that you could get probably was that it didn't hold the second career potential :(, otherwise I would have never dreamed of leaving it!

USMCFLYR

I will be the first to admit that there is a lot of luck involved with becoming a military pilot. But even if you don't get a pilot slot, you have a job for 4 years after college graduation that pays pretty good compared to most entry level jobs. And you have education benefits that will pay for advanced degree programs to include flight training. I used my post-9/11 GI bill to pay for a 737 type rating. It didn't cost me a dime and I still have $68,000 and/or 26 months of the benefit left to use however I want, even after I leave the military.

If you have the option to compete for the military pilot track, it is well worth it. Even if you never end up flying in the military, you'll be financially much more prepared to pay for the training you need to be an airline pilot in the future.

Talking to a 777 ca about a career in aviation is like talking to pimp to find out how bad prostitution is. (Sorry couldnt find a better analogy)

UND
 

Not sure if any of u know but what's it like to get into helos for the army? How do u go about that? How would they consider u for that? And how would those hours count toward ATP minimums? I've heard it's a 2 helicopter hours equals 1 hour TT, is that true?

I would start by getting off APC and typing 'Army Aviation' into Google.

US Army Aviation - Home of Everything US Army Aviation
There is even a drop down for 'Aspiring Pilots' :)

USMCFLYR

UND
 

Ok thank u :)