Cheating on ILS
 

While training for my instrument ticket and on a practice ILS approach have I accidentally gotten a glimpse of the runway and realized how way off course I was? Yes. The said accident happened due to a gust or because I wanted to adjust my pants or merely because I was wearing foggles and sometimes you just get to see "outside" when the visibility is so good. After the said accident have I corrected my deviation? Sure. Have I purposely taken a peak to make sure I was on course? Never. After all I was paying good money to learn this all so important skill and cheating was last on my agenda. I believe I have a student who is a cheater on the ILS. The student is in his early 20s, rich, dad pays for flight training, and always I mean every single day he is 10-15 minutes late for his appointment. Long story short. He does a very poor job on intercepting the localizer. At times he blows right through the localizer when we are about 5 miles from the OM. After an embarrassing call from approach or after my intervention we get back on course. After passing the outer marker he does a phenomenal job of holding the ILS and glideslope right on! He always looks up without my permission and points out landmarks, when I feel like urging him not to do so. My demeanor does not allow me to be firm with him although I know I should. I have a reputation for being a good instructor and I want my students to respect me. However, I am getting very frustrated with this case. In all honestly I want to have a good talk with him. But his father is an airline pilot and I am in a very sensitive place. Only he has to lose. However when the day comes when he has to shoot an ILS to minimums then the stuff will really hit the ceiling and I cannot live with it.
On a side note. I am also prepping a CFII candidate who did the same exact thing yesterday. I thought the ILS was out of service so I even tried using the other nav radio. The same candidate later told me that during his checkride he would attempt to cheat and if he saw the runway he would correct for it. I was utterly bitter about what he said. I could not keep it in any longer. I point blank told him that it was wrong. You should know how to shoot an ILS without cheating, and of course I shared him the story of my other student who does it every time we shoot an ILS. I sometimes wish they kept the hood for IFR training those foggles are too easy to cheat with. I have heard numerous accounts of examiners placing pillows or covering the windshield with sectionals etc.

Schedule him when it's IMC. Are you going to sign him off?

You need the old (or new) tandem military trainers which have basically a canvas sack pulled over the entire rear cockpit! :D It is great for invoking vertigo too! :eek:

Nah....seriously - isn't much you can do if the student doesn't want too try and would rather take the easy way out. You can talk to them (you have done this), explain the importance of the training (you have done this too), and give them real life examples of the consequences should they not take their training seriously (I'm sure you covered this too PP) - - so there you have it.

I have no experience teaching ILSs and such, but I do have some experience with instrument training in an area that often had wonderful weather and we would be practicing PARs. It is almost impossible to be looking forward through a HUD at the airfield and yet follower the Final Controllers' heading changes that would clearly take the airplane off course. I would chide them to actually follow the directions (often the controller's were trainees too) and remind them that there would be a time when they would need those skills, and the Final Controller's skills, when that Tule Fog rolled in come the winter months! :eek:

You have a challenge ahead of you PP - but I'll remind you that being the *nice* guy isn't always the way to play the game. You want your students to respect you - that is understandable and the way it should be - but that respect ought to be earned through your professionalism, teaching skills, knowing that you hold your students to exacting standards, and that you truly care for their professional development as pilots - not whether you've ever had to firmly correct a student or have a little sit down at the debriefing table and sugarcoat it for them so that you don't offend someone.
I understand that you are teaching in a totally different culture; but those are my first thoughts.

You may be sharing the skies with them in the future.

USMCFLYR

There's not a whole lot you can do in this case.

Having a very stern talk with him about how looking outside will only do him harm is the first step. If he continues doing it really the only thing you could do would be to not sign him off until you feel he can accomplish the tasks properly.

If he continues looking outside and threatens to switch instructors if you don't sign him off, so be it. Don't put your signature on something that isn't safe. Period.

The CFII case is deplorable. If he can't fly an ILS without cheating there's something wrong there.

Hope this helps!

You can't cheat in a FTD. Do you have access to a sim or ftd? If so, use it to test their abilities. Set a good crosswind for intercepting the LOC. I used to catch students doing this. Don't hold back, have a talk and make it brutally clear that they are only shooting themselves in the foot and you will not sign off on it.
I remember doing this once or twice during my instrument training, not on purpose, but it happens, and I actually felt bad about it and made effort to focus inside with the foggles on.
If I were you, I might use a sectional or something to partially cover the student's side of the windscreen as long as you have full view in the VFR environment. Good luck, just don't be intimidated by the student or who their father is. It's your reputation and certificate on the line.

First off you need to come down hard on him...you can approach that tactfully at first. If your nature prevents you from being forceful with a student when needed you are not suitable material to be an airline captain (or even FO for that matter)...this is something that you can and need to work on.

If he blows you off, then don't sign him off. I would start doing all his training in IMC if that's feasible. If not, fire him as a student. I would also have a talk with the examiners commonly used by the school as well just so they have a heads up that he might try this on checkride day...pink slip if he's lucky, but you can also get ALL of certs yanked for cheating on an FAA test.

The fact that his dad is an airline pilot has nothing to do with anything. The guy won't make it past the sim at his regional interview (if he's even still alive at 1500 hours).

WOW ..:rolleyes::o:eek:

I knew a student who sneaked a peek, several peaks on his instrument checkride. Needles to say the examiner gave him a no gyro hold using his nav 2 (obs) and mag compass. Long story short, the student double busted and got taught a lesson.

Pearl,

Its a matter of moral convection and context. You know what to do because you have been actually teaching the stuff (I fella told me long time ago to never take advice from someone who has not actually done it), so just do that right thing.

thats a good post

Is doing the training at night an option? You can still make out the lights but, he won't be pointing out landmarks and it could test his situational awareness. This worked really well in Florida where you could shoot any type of approach from over the water.

who gives a crap about the fact his father is an airline pilot. If the stud cant fly an ILS dont sign him off. And in reality and some point if it goes well beyond the normal learning curve perhaps the talk needs to be had that just maybe he is not cut out for instrument flying. I say put your foot down or show him the door.

Thanks for all the helpful responses. I truly appreciate it. First off, I am going to fly with him at night and see how things go. The guy is extremely lazy. I am most definitely spoon feeding him and it drives me off the wall. So far I have been a lucky CFI with a bunch of great students. Luckily the couple of bad apples I had either stopped flying or have switched instructors. My plan is to have a talk with him in the nicest way possible. He is more than half way into his training and I still need to talk him through procedures etc. If the bad habits continue and if he keeps messing up, then I will have him fly with another CFI to evaluate him. If all else fails, I will not sign him off period. The guy is obviously looking for an easy way out. "I just need to get my instrument rating" is what he says. If I were to sign him off then, I have no choice but to talk to my DPE and give him a heads up. It is a difficult situation. I may also try to trick him into putting a hood to see his true colors. I could say the DPE may bring a hood along or something like that...Again thanks.

I do not think that cracking down on this guy for cheating is really going to solve his problem, which is a serious fear of failure in light of his more successful father. He needs to learn that he "can" do it, can do it honestly, and that being honest is the better option.

He probably has a successful father who set the bar kind of high and who scares him as to how he will measure up as a pilot himself. I know that scenario myself, having had a father with two PhDs. It can be pretty intimidating. This guy needs to build self- reliance, you are going to have to teach it to him.

To remove the cheating aspect, try putting him in a simulator with no way to cheat for a while, and tell him you know he is cheating in the real airplane and this is for his own good so he does not kill himself when the crap hits the fan in real IMC. Teach him the standard IFR tricks, like imagining a line drawn from the course pointer to the top of the HSI to help manage turns to final on time.

You could turn a light on if you worked with him, make a solid pilot out of him. Above all, don't get mad, just accept his psychological weakness and go from there. People cheat when they feel they have no other option, unfortunately.

That was normal on our checkrides. I think there has been a lot of pressure let down on new candidates.

Lot said already about the cheating but hope you're billing him for this. If you showed up late for your accountant, dentist, doctor, psychologist, golf pro, personal trainer, Lawyer, etc. you'd get a bill.

I bill "contact time" (no distinction between ground/flight). But I don't stand around and drink coffee while you pre-flight either; I'm there every time asking questions, and getting paid for it. I understand emergencies, etc and I account for that but when it's a problem I start the clock. That usually solves the late problem.

Had to do this with a lawyer - when he squawked I turned it back on him, "would you bill hourly if YOUR client was 20 minutes late? Does that affect your professional income? Mine too." Problem went away.

See how dad feels when the $$$ is wasted. Would dad expect to get paid for his time?

Man up!

If the guy is looking up, then he has no right to kill 50 folks in a RJ. This assumes that he even makes it to the line. I'd drop the guy and let him find another CFII. If daddy calls, tell him the truth. You may just save his life.

I used the old gray hood, it really does limit your view compared to those crappy foggles. Just my opinion on those.

I agree, you need to be bling him for lost time if he is always late.

Thank you again gents. It would make my job so much easier if I was a psychologist too. We do put on so many hats as instructors. Teacher, parent, friend, cheerleader, shrink, to name just a few. The kid in my opinion is defaulting for his dad's role if that makes any sense. I feel like the dad is more interested in seeing his son become a pilot. He walks in half asleep somedays that I feel like perhaps he does not have the same amount of motivation the older man does.
In this situation like Cub said I have to help him realize his potential. On the bright side he is a good stick has a natural way about him, but has a fear of failing or perhaps even a fear of disappointing me...

he is NOT a good stick or he could fly a freaking ILS.... I disagree with Cub driver... crack down or show him the door. EVERYONE IS not cut out for this business.

So may I ask, were you really that good at only 100 hours of total flying time yourself, up to PTS standards all the time, with only one checkride behind you? I think 100 hours is way to early to flip the gate closed on someone who was introduced to flying only a few months prior. Let him fail a checkride or two first, then maybe consider closing some gates. Personally, I think this is a character building issue. At this point we do not know whether he can be a pilot or not, all we know is he cheats in his training.

20+ years ago I had a few "lazy and weak" students. Firm and bold honesty solved the problems. USMC's statement about needing the ability to communicate to other crewmembers makes a good leader and Captain. Do yourself and the student a favor and have the talk. If they don't like it, they can shop for a new CFI. I dam sure don't want an F/O who is afraid to speak up if I'm screwing up. Do the profession a favor and own up to it, it is your job after all.


Cheers.

Yup.
..........

one of 2 things are gonna happen to him if he keeps cheating and you sign him off and he passes his practical because he either cheated or got lucky......1. He will crash and kill only himself in actual IMC. 2. He will crash with passengers into a house or school.

Guess who the Feds are gonna ask about his training? and hope they don't see this thread if you sign him off? I'm guessing he also is gonna pencil whip his logbook.

I consider myself a professional and if I don't speak up I am only doing harm to myself. I am just "spoiled" by a bunch of good students, but the reality is obviously I will meet all kids both as a CFI and hopefully in the future as an F/O...

And at the same time, should he be called a "good stick" with such limited experience?

USMCFLYR

My thoughts:

1. Tell him that he's only cheating himself. When he's shooting an approach in actual, there's nothing to be seen outside, no matter how hard he looks.

2. Talk to his dad. Surely an airline pilot can see how stupid the idea of sneaking a peek is.

3. If all else fails, drop him. With some students, you have to mark the line in the sand- either he's gonna stop cheating, or he can find another CFI. How comfortable would you be if you signed him off, and then years later walked onto an airplane and saw him up front?

PS. Def. think it's a good idea to give the examiner a heads up about this student.

it doesn't stop at FO...you meet all kinds as a CA too...just when you thought you've seen it all... ;):eek:

I think you can easily call him a good stick with 100hrs. My best student was a great stick, and I saw it before he had 10hrs.

After a while, it's pretty easy to tell.

That said, he may be a good stick, but is obviously a **** poor pilot. There's more to it than just being a good stick, and it sounds like this guy doesn't have the rest of it.

Gentlemen, I truly appreciate your comments. I am in the process of reading The Right Stuff by Tom Wolf. Here is a direct quotation. I was reading this sentence and realized the importance of taking a stance. "There were key moments in a military career when a man had to assume leadership. That was the essence of true leadership caliber, and surely that fact would be appreciated...by others who would hear about it..."
Thus far my aviation career has been a very great experience for lack of better words. I want to be in the makings of the group of pilots with "the right stuff". I promise you gents, I will have the talk. If things do not work out, I will fire him.

Really?
Maybe our definitions of a "good stick" are different?
10 hrs huh? I can't imagine what you saw in all of 10 hours to make such a call.
I flew with a guy on his first two flights in a small airplane and could tell that he seem to have have the ability to grasp a concept pretty quickly, had good hand-eye coordination, and a real desire to listen and learn - absorb the experience. He turned out to be what I would call a good stick (as a student) after numerous checkrides and accomplishing, no excelling, at some pretty challenging flying with only twice the time of this student of Pearls.

My definition is probably different. In my opinion, I doubt this guy has seen enough to have experience anything to make him a good stick. He doesn't sound like the type of pilot, who since earning his Private, has been out finding challenging environments to test his skills or actually spends the time or money to go out and practice any of the perishable skills of a less than 100 hr private pilot, and certainly doesn't seem to be displaying "good pilot" skills if he is having trouble intercepting a localizer and then taking a peek outside to get back on course.

Maybe this guy has average flying skills compared to other students and what sounds like a below average attitude. Hopefully PP's sit down talk with this young man will open up his eyes; whether it is the instructor's eyes or the student's eyes, well.....we'll have to wait and see after PP gets back to us with an update ;)

USMCFLYR

Yes, we are using different definitions. I was talking about stick and rudder skills- making the airplane do just what you need it to do. You seem to be talking more about his overall qualities- decision making, experience etc.

By your definition, yes, 100hrs may be a bit early to make that call, and what we know of this student doesn't suggest that he'll ever meet your definition.

Despite what most flight school owners will say, not everybody can fly.

I was talking about both - but especially the complete package.

I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly - though in the civilian world isn't it true that as long as the money keeps flowing and the student doesn't look like he is going to kill himself or break an airplane - that there aren't actually 'up or out' points in the training process? It seems that there are stories out there of certain students who are perpetual students - drifting from instructor to instructor, 3 times the minimum (or even average) flight hours for whatever certificate or rating they are training for, always delaying the checkride for various reasons, etc....?

USMCFLYR

From OP: "After all I was paying good money to learn this all so important skill and cheating was last on my agenda. I believe I have a student who is a cheater on the ILS. The student is in his early 20s, rich, dad pays for flight training, and always I mean every single day he is 10-15 minutes late for his appointment."

From the above, it sounds like this kid doesn't really want to be there. Does HE want to be a Pilot, or is his Dad pushing him to be a pilot?

If you show up late, you are telling your instructor you don't respect them, or their time, and you are not interested in being there.

If I were you, next time this kid shows up late, I'd say to him, "Don't waste MY time, and your DAD's Money!"

In fact, you may want to have a talk with his dad, let him know what's going on, maybe he can smack some sense into him.

Lol good times I had a white bed sheet over my head when I was flying with the ends on top of the dash. Held down with my logbook .

:eek:

When I read that, it occurred to me that if taken out of context, some groups may take exception to that...:D

Update:
1.The dad and I had a talk. He is well aware of his son's incompetence.
2. I will bill him for being late. I started today, he was 10 minutes late and .2 went on his bill.
3. I will be occasionally using a hood for which he agreed.
4. I will no longer spoon feed him.
5. I can no longer tolerate his tardiness so I will have to be more firm with him, if not I am actually considering of canceling a lesson in which he was late in the future.

It is a working progress. In a perfect world sure I would love to get rid of him. The reality is that there are and will be students like him in any CFIs career. I am in the opinion that we as CFIs should find ways, sometimes creative, to work such things out. After all we are known to have a great deal of patience. But honestly in this case it is running out in a hurry.

You are the CFI holding the reins and you are responsible for correcting the bad behavior early on! Remember the law of primacy - the habits we learn first stick! I don't think addressing the issue this late in the game will help because he's accustomed to breaking the rules.

I made the same mistake with my very first instrument student. He was regularly late and didn't study or do his homework, but he was a good stick and fun to be around, so other than the occasional reminder to work harder, I let it slide.

I waited too long to confront him, and when I did, he lost his **** and completely blew up. We had an argument, but I eventually got him to apologize and admit he was wrong. After that, he no-showed for the rest of the semester, so I charged him and failed him for the course.

He accumulated so many absences and tardies over the next year that he dropped out of college completely.

According to his Facebook he's a "Customer Service Representative" at Denny's. The irony is that he's home every night and probably makes more money than I do, but that's beside the point :cool:

The harsh reality is that some people are pricks, plain and simple, no matter how much we want to like or help them. They do not care about success or working hard, and will disrespect you and waste your time. It is not your job to be friends with these a**holes - it is your job to identify them, discipline them, and, if you can, teach them. Good luck.

You mentioned he tracks great once established (inside the marker). It seems his trouble (on the ILS) is with the intercept. Try intercepting VOR radials within 10 miles of the staion. Do it over and over again. Use radials with and without a crosswind. Point out the relative motion of the needle and how it relates to how quickly he must adjust heading. Show him what happens if he simply parallels the course and what to do if the motion stops but the needle isn't centered. Point out there maybe wind variation as he decends and how to handle it. Once he gets good at it he won't want or need to cheat. As for showing up late, either charge for your time waiting or show up 30 minutes late yourself.

You have to "get real" with them and tell them what the performance will cause, in terms of checkrides, jobs, and just outright survival. Some of them can do it, it's just a matter of inspiring and motivating them to do so. For many of them, this is the most they've ever performed in their life, even though it's well within their capability. Be careful and watchout for dogmatic statements and teaching. I've had to demo entire approaches to students to show them the real management of the tasks, when they should be doing things, when they shouldn't, where they should be looking, what to ask for, and so on. I required my CFIIs to do it just for this purpose. Not that we can't teach while the student is flying, but many of them never really get the concepts and are constantly making it harder on themselves, twisting dials and pushing buttons in turns, not requesting time or lower altitudes, asking for position/radar information, being able to task-shed with navs and know what is really important and what is "nice to have", never really getting the concept of using the attitude indicator, and so on. You'll see these situations where you constantly say the "right things", and if quizzed or asked the student will give the "correct answers", but you can watch them do the task in the airplane and see the obvious disconnect, in that it just doesn't happen and can't be applied.

If they aren't grasping these concepts and taking this stuff to heart, you often have to "stop" training until you can get some kind of commitment to improve. Remember that these are usually young people who have never done anything where it was solely their performance that determined a life and death outcome. You are not trying to make a negative implication here, but trying to motivate them to perform to what the situation requires.