Graduating College.. Off to ATP?
 

I'm currently in my last year at a NC college and will be graduating in May. I got my PPL last year and have accrued 86 flight hours TT. I have done well with my college studies however I want to fly for a living because it is my passion.. I am an extremely hard worker and when I got my PPL I worked 40+ hours a week, flew 3-4 days a week, and still got my license in 3 months time.. All this being behind me I think an accelerated program may work for me due to my high workload I can take. I want to go to ATP Flight School either in Raleigh or Charlotte, does anyone have any other advice for me? Or even which location may be best for training? Thanks!

Who paid for college ? Who will pay for flight training ? Have you considered the military ?

I was fortunate enough to have parents that paid for my college education, I however did pay for my PPL. The next venture to ATP would be funded by myself and my parents would undoubtedly try to help me.. I am not considering military flying at this point.

Avoid loans at all cost. Pay as you go. Do not accrue debt to enter this profession that at a regional level is merely a step above prostitution.

Generally im not a proponent of pilot mill programs, however in your case i would suggest to consider atp 90 day accelerated career pilot program. With hiring on the upswing again, and given how you said that you succeed in high workload environment and having college out of the way- i think you can blast through atps 3 month gig and start building flight time as an instructor. That program requires 100 TT and 25 XC PIC, but their price for it is $50,000 which is a bit more reasonable than their $65,000 zero time program which in my opinion is a little steep. Good luck!

Any specific reason why you are not considering pursuing an ANG pilot training slot?

What is your major? Why not work, and pay your way through. Just to echo what prior121 said, stay away from loans.

Who is going to want to receive instruction from someone with a couple hundred hours and "blasted through" a mill?

I had my heart set on flying for the Air Force for a long time, turns out that their OTS selection board is sitting in March (before I graduate) therefore I will not be eligible and have to wait ANOTHER YEAR.. just to see if I am selected and then I have been told it would be yet another several months and possibly year before I ship out just fot OTS, then comes the UPT (IF I even made it in).. It is just increasingly unfeasible at least in my mind to wait around so long for a chance that may good and well never accumulate. The flip side obviously I have a good degree so I can go ahead and work or obviously right now head direct civilian and fly like crazy straight to 1500hrs.. then see how things workout.. In my circumstance thankfully I am weighing in the fact I have zero debt as of college grad and I myself have saved a little over 30 G's to run through ratings as a start. I am well aware of the pitfalls aviation may throw but I love flying. Thanks for the advice so far guys.

Adlerdriver, as I certainly understand your point in some degree of light, in my mind it is what it is, flight experience. Granted, the experience attained is in a shorter amount of time the flight time is the same and in all reality research proves that retention is better to continue throughout a course of study than butcher it into years. I'm not saying the pilots won't come out the same or be accomplished if you do it over the years, I'm saying I have flown with PPLs that I grew up with as a boy, and after I got my license in just under three months I was teaching them tricks and proficiency just by flying with one another... Point is the Instructors are on the top of their game typically just after getting all their ratings and building time... I have 86 hours so no I don't have this experience YET but I wouldn't be looking at this if I didn't believe in it... I mean when you got your license didn't you feel like you were filled with incredible amounts of knowledge and then months or years later have to scratch your head and crack a book etc again wishing you knew what you still knew then... yes you know more from a practical standpoint, we are all pilots, a good pilot is always learning.

Thanks for your input and feel free to engage.

So big deal, it is delayed a year. During that year, get your IFR and Commercial tickets, and get a job at the airport as a lineboy or something. We are talking a career with retirement at age 60, 65. IE, 40 years ahead of you.

I disagree with the bolded above.
Instructos that have just earned their certificates are definitely NOT at the top of their games.
Actual instruction will eventually get you there.
I doubt that you would agree that a 16 year old who has just received his driver's license would be at the top of their driving game and you would want to take instruction from them.
Personally I like instructors who have some 'real world' experience. but that is my personal views and I know that often the aviation ladder of progression doesn't always allow for that order.

As far as your timeline for the ANG/Reserve slot, no one is saying that the civilian career has to take a back seat to your military application process - they could run together.

USMCFLYR, thanks for the input buddy, I am obviously still very inexperienced and aching to learn all I can! In reference to your statement you are correct. I may have been a little bold the way I worded my original post which you have referred. I do believe that my statement holds weight however in the fact that most new rated pilots have a good degree of proficiency especially related to others such as regular PPLs but I guess it may not be as true comparing that relationship to commercial type flying! Maybe that's a better way to see it.

At any rate, I have been thinking of the ANG/Reserve slots but I do not know much about the process to get a pilot slot etc. I am assuming maybe similar to the lines of USAF OTS and then UPT?.. I would like to fly airlines so in that situation I would fly my airline job and fly reserve when I was needed correct? I hear your airline makes sure that you get that time without penalty..?

There are numeroous threads about the path to a ANG/Reserve slot on both this site and baseops.net.
If that is a route that interests you then the established threads will start you down the right path.
It is a lot of work. It takes dedication.
You have to want it.

Enjoy the ride.

You realize you've just described every FAIP in the Military training pipeline! :eek:

a guy who went thru Pensacola and is an IP is not the same as a guy who went thru Acme Aeronautics and got his CFI. I think most of us recognize that.

signed - a civilian guy

Seeing as my instructor (and a guy with whom I fly a lot with) used to teach at ATP Raleigh, he seemed to enjoy it and the area isn't to particularly busy and you usually can get just about any approach you need and cross country experience right at the 50mi mark (which never happens in the training hotbed of Phoenix). Completing the 90 Day Fast Trak guarantees you a CFI interview with ATP (not necessarily at the place you want at first, but you'll get there eventually) and its a pretty quick way to build time at the airlines (plus, if you want to go to Republic [not my choice at all], during your crew XC you get a guaranteed interview and a conditional job offer.

Overall though, its your choice on how you'd like to proceed, both routes get you there, one is looked upon more favorably; however to airlines, the time is what matters and so long as you have proved that you have the effort and the time, you're good. Obviously, avoid loans (or if you do need them, make them small).

Yeah, you're right, the Civilian IP has probably has flown in a snow storm or two, and landed on icy and snow covered runways, and had to figure out what he was doing, with no adult supervision, whereas the guy with 200 hours in PNS...not so much. :rolleyes:

I remember reading this in my Air Force Instrument handbook:

"There is no peace time mission which requires flight through adverse weather conditions"

I used to tell them, "Geeze, I hope when the next war breaks out the weather is really good, because most of you guys have never seen a snowflake!"

Signed, a Civilian guy who then went through Air Force UPT in Del Rio. We saw a foggy day, once, but nobody could fly in it! :rolleyes:

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this point Timbo.
I'm not a fan of the FAIP/SERGRAD programs either though I know excellent pilots from each, but I don't see how you can possibly compare the 90 ATP wonder zero-to-hero program.
Guess AF training might be a little different, but by the time I could have been a SERGRAD/CFI - I'll put my basic instrument skills. advanced instrument skills, precision landings, formation flying, aerobatics, and advance maneuvering skill set (to include strike, BFM and carrier qualification) against the 250 hr newly minted CFI with a 90 day fast-track program behind him. :rolleyes:

Signed, a civilian guy first who when through a similar training track as you, but I didn't go through Del Rio I'll give you that.

thread drift alert light illuminated

Well the OP started it :D

Well so far I respectfully am considering everyones input since I have a lot of different options available to me and i'm learning more options through all of you who give me more input/paths to flying career progressions... I really appreciate the help, I love this forum! I'm going to go flying tomorrow out at the local airport I'm rated in a DA-20 so I think I'll do a cross country over to RDU full stop and see whats up at ATP.

I've got no experience with Navy flight school, or with the ATP flight school, so I defer to your knowledge of both. All I know is my first IP in Del Rio had never flown an airplane 18 months before I met him, (I was his first student) and he'd never flown outside of West Texas.

When he told me you cannot fly an airplane in a snow storm, or in a thunderstorm, I just laughed, and said, "You'd better call American Airlines up there in Chicago come January, or Eastern in Miami in July and warn them, because I'm pretty sure they do it every day."

He was a good guy and we got along fine, we learned a lot from each other, but at that time, having just got his wings a few months before we met, he only knew what the books told him, and he'd never seen real weather of any type, from inside a cockpit. He's now a 767 Capt. at Delta, so he obviously learned as he went along. I'm pretty sure he flies through both snow and rain now. :eek::D

When you graduate from AF UPT, they give you a critique to fill out. I told them to get rid of the First Assignment Instructor Pilots, send all the pilots out into the real world for a few years to get some experience, then bring them back to instruct. They'd have much better IP's if they did.

Most of the guys I knew in my class that got FAIP'd didn't want to be IP's and they certainly didn't want to spend another 3 years in Del Rio!! One guy's wife left him on assignment night when he got FAIP'd to the T37. What they should do is tell every pilot that gets his first choice plane and base, be it fighters or heavies, you WILL come back and instruct after your 3 year tour is up.

I'd suggest calling them before you leave (ATP-RDU that is) because right now Bryan and David are the only ones there and well, they might both be out when you drop in. Never hurts to call first.

Dude, take a year off from life and travel around the world. You'll never get the chance to do something like that again so take advantage of it while you still can!

I'm pretty sure, almost 100% sure you can apply to AF OTS before you have your actual degree. I think you can even start in your junior year with transcripts proving an adequate GPA and under the condition you maintain it/keep your nose clean. 2010 was the last time I delved into AF OTS and I'm pretty sure those were the rules back then.

I ended up going Navy OCS with a pilot slot and nearly died from a freak infection after wisdom teeth extracted in P'cola so now I'm DQ'ed due to it doing damage to my aortic valve. Id give anything to be in your shoes but that does not necessarily mean military is right for you of course, just don't write it off so quickly.

No matter what branch you deal with applying to OCS/OTS, you will almost definitely be told inaccurate info at various points along the way. Individual recruiting commands, recruiters and even people who work for recruiters (civilian secretaries, etc) can seem to have their own ways of looking at the world that are neither explainable nor repeatable. I wont throw the "recruiters are lairs" cliche out there because its not necessarily true but they are known, for whatever reason, to have creative interpretations of the rules. Google "OCSFoundation forums" or something like that, there is one for every branch. That will help sift through any BS you hear along the way when you get a whole bunch of people in the same shoes from all over the country to bounce it off. Most everything in the military world is spelled out and applied universally, in theory. Don't be afraid to politely and professionally point out regulations to your recruiter and go above his/her head if they are still not getting the point. Its not personal, some need to be made to do their job correctly.

Again, the college timeline thing is simply NOT TRUE. No need to be graduated before you apply.

On timing, don't believe any of the BS your recruiter is told to tell you about OTS wait times, etc. Yes it could be a year, it will likely be ALOT less from acceptance to the time you are boots on the ground at OTS. When I got into the Navy game, I was accepted in Feb and told to expect October or so for a class date at earliest. In late April I got a call asking if I could potentially show up at the beginning of MAY!!! Fortunately it was not that quick as I was not in good enough shape yet (Navy OCS is wayyy harder than AFOTS;)).

Beyond that, you have this outlook that things are mutually exclusive; "if I do one I can't ever do the other" type mindset. Not an insult, I can be the same way with things.

You have a PPL and you fly and you have $30G sitting around with NO debt. Start knocking out the ratings at whatever flight school/airport is going to provide the most networking opportunities for you. Stay involved and keep showing your face, flying, etc. You will probably get job opportunities from that alone if you are good/persistent and you will never have to overpay for something like ATP. You could work a job in your degree field at the same time which you imply is easy to get/lucrative. Instead of loosing money at ATP, you can be making money and building ratings/hours. Whats to loose?

You are very young in the grand scheme of things, you have time on your side more so than alot of us. You could do 7 years active duty, transition reserves and retire with 20 years and a pension and then go onto a second or third career flying with ease. The reserve time you can obviously have another job as well. Military benefits your entire career ability to earn GOOD income with a consistent retirement check later in life, health benefits paid for, you have alot to gain to write the entire thing off over a "rule" that is not true or being unwilling to wait a year.

If you don't want it for other reasons, say so, thats fine, your current reasons are not valid.

I believe you have that quote a little bit wrong. What the handbook stated was "There is no peace time mission that requires flight through thunderstorms." If we avoided "adverse weather" during my time stationed at Bitburg Germany, we wouldn't have flown from October through March.

As far as the instructor discussion goes: Getting a PPL and a few hours under one's belt doesn't mean a pilot is going to automatically be ready to provide valid instruction. There's an experience gap between being a proficient private pilot with good general knowledge and actually telling/showing/teaching someone else how to do the various tasks and maneuvers. The only way to close that gap is personally gaining that experience on a regular basis. When someone can describe yoke/pedal/throttle positions in detail, amounts of control inputs, what the aircraft will feel and sound like, what mistakes their student is likely to make in most situations, how they will handle those errors - just to name a few - then they might want to think about actually attempting to provide someone with some actual instruction.

I was never a FAIP, but my first T-37 IP was. He was very competent. IMO, there's no point comparing a product of a high intensity training program like UPT followed by PIT with someone out of a 3-month ATP course. Apples and oranges.

Good point. I know I didnt want that. But unfortunately thats the way it goes in the pilot mills- a cfi trained by a 300hr cfi trained by a 300hr cfi. I was fortunate to find high time civilian and military instructors for my initial ratings, payed as i went, and got through debt free while received quality instruction. Not a fan of fast track programs, but in Flyboy's case, who's looking into one, i did throw that out there as one of the options for consideration. In the end, both roads get you there, but to each their own.

I was based at Pease for 8 years in a Guard KC135. I went TDY to Bitburg many times, back in the mid 1980's, to refuel you guys. At least half our missions there were cancelled because the ceilings were too low for the fighters to fly...:rolleyes: We got a car and did a lot of sight seeing on all those no-fly days, so we had a good time there!

As to who does what, and what creates a better IP, have you been through a Civilian Instructor Course? Or are you just repeating what they told you in UPT? It's a lot more than just a few hours on top of the PPL.

I agree about the pilot mills; too little, too fast, and the biggest problem with the civilian training programs are that there is no real Quality Control. It's hit or miss, depending on where you go and who you get and how much money you have to spend. There's no real way to wash out the bad apples.

When I was a kid my Dad was CFI'ng every day, and flying mail runs in a twin Beach at night. He used to say, "Given enough bananas you could teach a monkey to fly." The Civilian program allows anyone with enough money to keep coming back and getting more lessons, no matter how lazy they are about studying and working on their skills.

When I got to UPT, I saw that they'll only give you 10 bananas, then a check ride, 10 more bananas, another check ride, etc. You bust one checkride, you are one more bad ride away from being out the door. So there is a much tighter quality control there, no doubt. I was amazed that they could take a guy with zero time and in 49 weeks have him flying a T38 in a 4 ship and IFR qualled too. But, the washout rate is 30%. Not so in the Civilian world, as long as the student has money, they'll keep taking it.

At UPT, Flying is all you do for those 49 weeks, you eat, sleep, drink it. No day job or other distractions that most Civilians have to deal with, no trying to save up enough money for your next lesson either, still some guys find a way to party too much and wash out.

OK, sorry to get so long winded, back to my original point, wich was a reply to your statement about pilot mills:

I feel that the two programs, the Civilian Pilot Mill, and the Military, would BOTH produce much better pilots if they both used IP's with some real world experiece, vs. 250hr. FAIPs and Pilot Mill grads. As I said in my UPT critique, send them out to get some flying experience for 3 years, then bring them back to instruct.

I've been through both programs, and I've had brand new IP's in both, and I've had very highly experienced IP's in both. The guys with the experience were much better, no doubt. That's my only point here.

Our feelings of FAIPS amd SERGRADS are the same - no disagreement there.
The discussion was in the comparison between a FAIP/SERGRAD and a newly minted CFI. What makes the programs even remotely successful is that they are instructing in a very narrowly defined syllabus; but this stuff about not taking students into weather and such is not what I experienced.

Many missions are canceled because of weather in the working areas - not because you can't takeoff and land. You have to know this with your experience. are you just trying to stir the pot? ;)
Nope - at the end of my college training program I decided NOT to go for the CFI/II/MEI certs because I didn't think I was ready to instruct. Most of my instructors were newly minted CFIs. When I moved on to insotructors that actually had some real world experience the difference in instruction was remarkable.

When I was a kid my Dad was CFI'ng every day, and flying mail runs in a twin Beach at night. He used to say, "Given enough bananas you could teach a monkey to fly." The Civilian program allows anyone with enough money to keep coming back and getting more lessons, no matter how lazy they are about studying and working on their skills.

Amen. :D

Sorry for the confusion USMC, my reply you quoted above was meant for Adler Driver.

No confusion. I piggy-backed on that reply to Alder.

Flyboy.
The time to start though is now. The track is long and can be tedious.
It is doubtful that someone will hold your hand along the way.
General guidance is the norm. Specifics will most likely be left up to you (which takes determination). Be sure that you are talking to the right people. Check out those other sources previously mentioned.
Be smart about your parallel training track if that is the path you chose.
Financial responsibility starts early, and the effects of mismanagementare costly and long lasting.
Good luck in your decision.

As a product of the UPT of old, you have some solo time in the T-38. I'm sure you can extrapolate that experience to hand flying a single seat, 160 knot approach in a fighter down to basic CAT-1 mins off round dials with no HUD (F-15C HUD isn't used for approaches). Our home-drome ILS approaches allowed us to go down to 200-1/2. Without the benefit of an auto-pilot or pilot monitoring, that's low enough for me. Scoff that if you'd like - maybe you're just better at an ILS than me. :D Our USMC friend has a point also: not much use in taking off and setting yourself up for flying an approach to mins when all the working areas are socked in too.

As to your other point on experienced IPs - it makes total sense and I couldn't agree more. It was always nice having the guest help IP in UPT with some real world experience fly a sortie with you. We have guys teaching at FedEx that have made the school house a career. They rarely fly the line and their level of practical experience is inadequate to really allow them to offer credible instruction.

I did love flying the White Rocket, who doesn't?

For a few days I even considered giving up my Guard Tanker slot for an Active Duty T38 IP slot, which was offered to me, but sanity prevailed, and I went home to never fly inverted or super sonic again in a KC 135: Airline Lead In, a year later I was hired at Delta.

When I was in the T37 program my AD buddies would bust my nutz saying, "Why do you want to go fly a TANKER?? You will NEVER go past 30 degrees of bank again, and you'll never pull 6 G's in a Tanker!"

I would reply with, "That Tanker is going to get my a job at Delta, and then I'll pull 150 G's, and then I'll buy a Pitts Special that will do things you clowns can only dream about!" :eek::D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hna5pv4lCOM

My table mate going through UPT was a Reserve guy, going to an F4 in the Mako's, (Homestead, FL.) he had a ton of civilian time before going to UPT as I did. Together we had over 8,000 hours when we showed up. We got a FAIP with 200 in West Texas. BUT...my Reserve buddy had already build 3 Pitts Specials, AND he had won the Advanced Category National Championship, in a Pitts that he and his Dad (a Delta L10-11 Capt.) built, when he was 21! Curtis Pitts lived just down the road from them in Homestead.

He would fly his ILS's in the T38 Inverted! It would only fly for 30 seconds upside down before it ran out of gas, so he would hack his clock, roll it upside down for 25 seconds, roll it right side up for 5 seconds, roll it upside down again.

I kid you not. I was his wingman, I saw it with my own eyes. The Base Commander used to come down to our squadron just to fly with him. He taught me more than any of the IP's I had. He did this rolling 360 with 4 aileron rolls in it, blew our IP's mind! He taught me how to fly formation and how to do a lot better acro.

Funny coincidence. My class leader was as a Mako as well. Going from WSO in the F-4 to F-16 pilot as they made the transition. I give him most of the credit for steering me toward the Eagle assignment at Bitburg.

You can't really be attempting to paint flying an ILS inverted as something impressive, can you? BPS (bored pilot syndrome) has killed many pilots over the years.

I was impressed when I saw him do it! It was day VFR at UPT, so he was just screwing around, but he was very calculated in everything he did, not BPS. Point is, he could do it. You ever tried it? When I asked him how he learned to fly formation (he soled form on his first form ride) he said they used to fly 8 Pitts Specials from MIA up to Fon Du Lac (Wisconsin) for the National Aerobatic Championship every July.

The 4 on the inside of the diamond would all be right side up, the 4 on the outside would all fly on the wing, inverted, for two hours! Then they would have to land and fuel up, but they would fly the pattern to land with lead right side up, two inverted, three right side up, four inverted, etc. He said the first time he flew it, he didn't roll right side up until about 100 feet up...then he got into a PIO and had to go around!

Awesome!
 

So when do I start my inverted approaches? :eek:;):)

You might want to go get some Acro lessons in a Pitts S2B or Extra 300L first, then give it a go.

Here's a place to get started; https://www.iac.org/legacy/recreational-aerobatics

Just find an acro instructor in your area then go have fun!