hey toeman what do you consider a sh@# flight instructor??? i know some shi@# flight instructors but i also know sh@#$ students also. When i was instucting if a student want to get all of his ratings we would do the first portion of his private up untill the solo then go on to the instrument when most of the instrument was finished they would solo by that time the solo was a non-event three supervised solo's in the mourning 2 local solo's in the afternoon. 2 x-c's the next day, another 2 the following day untill all the solo's were done review the slow flight steep turns stalls checkride (non-event) two weeks later instrument checkride commercial complete in a couple weeks later, very productive program. i soloed at a different school than i instructed at so i scared myself aroud the pattern in about 10-12 hours I did not kill myself but i did not enjoy it untill i was back on the ground.

Are you worried I may have to intercept you? I'll be gentle, I promise. Even if you still do want to attend ATP.:D

<grin>

Yeap...You'll know its me...I put a big ATP meatball on the side / top / bottom of my C172.

-LAFF

"I've never said ATP has no bad CFIs. I don't drink their kool-aid. I've never set foot in an ATP location"

LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?

I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.

ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.

My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.

Alright here it comes:

How does a bad/poor student attitude affect YOUR training?? I have never had a poor attituded student affect my training, and I don't see how they would affect your training.

Your right, every student takes the EXACT same amount of time. There are no learning curves, everyone gets everything the first time around, perfectly. If this is what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for your furture students when you sign them off based solely on the amount of Dual they have received and not on their capabilities.

There are also a few ALL ATP Guys who sound just like some of these ERAU grads. If you just replaced ALL ATPS with ERAU, I think it would be a perfect match.

I guess one bad FBO means all FBOs are bad. Its a shame because you can find instructors with much more real-world expeirence at FBOs, not so much at ATP. One of my instructors retired from a career of flying and teaches because he loves to. I think I learned more from him than I would from a 190 hour, brand new, ATP Grad, teaching me.

The problem with half of your X-C time being Safety Pilot time, is that you do not have the expeirence that goes along with the time. You have half the expeirence. You lose out on alot when you simply sit right seat and look out the window for other aircraft.

I hope they do more than listen to me. I hope they do their own research. If they do - they'll realize that ATP offers the best $$$ deal for the hours / type of hours / time from start to finish of any 141 flight academy out there. If you are serious about getting into aviation as a career changer then pay up and get your ratings at ATP. Then CFI...Then apply for 135 jobs...Then head to a regional after you get some 135 single pilot IFR type flying in your logbook.

I'm not responsible for people taking my word and not doing their own research....

-LAFF

Real world experience at milking their students out of their money. I do agree not all FBO CFIs lack real world experience.

There is a considerable difference between the Harvard of the Skies and ATP. You're not saying ATP is the same as Harvard of the Skies are you? ATP is for flight training. Harvard of the Skies is for...Debt?

Don't be dramatic and pretend to care about my future students. Its not your place or responsibility unless I work for you. In that case, your expectations will be given thier due from me the loyal / hard-working employee. However, the final say on if they are ready or is mine. I'm not flexible on that responsibility. You can hire someone else if you disagree. There are plenty of CFI jobs out there.

-LAFF

LAFF, Below is a sample of the Prairie Air Service Ab-Initio program for approx. $34,085 you get 317 hours of total time, 156 hours of multi, ratings PPL thru MEI, includes 6 months of housing with food(worst case- can be done in 4-5 realistically saving $600/mo), includes examiner fees, written fees, etc. Out the door for $34K. The same program without food at ATP...$47,395. You can add the additional 34 hours to get to 190 multi at PAS for $5270 w/ instructor only or 50% as safety pilot for $2635 which brings your PAS total to $39,425 / $36,790 PAS savings $7970 - $10605 with CFI's that have been flying more than 90 days.
So in this case ATP is for DEBT?

http://www.prairieairservice.com/com..._ab_initio.htm
Single and Multi Engine Instrument and Commercial Pilot Course #3: $21,900.00

This is our "deluxe" package which includes 150 hours multi-engine flight time and a total of 161 hours of retractable gear experience. It includes 78 hours Cessna 150, 11 hours Piper Arrow, 150 hours Piper Apache and 16 hours ATC 610 procedures trainer. This package also includes 132 hours of instructor time (approximately 86 hours flight, 16 hours flight training device and 30 hours ground instruction). 110 hours of multi engine flight time will be enhanced instrument training and shared flight time: You will fly with another pilot, and one of you will wear a hood and practice instrument procedures, while the other pilot acts as safety pilot. Under this arrangement the FAA allows both pilots to log the flight time. Due to insurance requirements an instructor will be on board on these flights. He will ride in the back seat and act as coach. You will receive enhanced instrument instruction above and beyond the requirements for the instrument rating. A multi-engine mountain flying checkout to Colorado or New Mexico is included. We can also fly a long multi-engine cross country trip lasting several days to a tourist attraction such as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or Niagara Falls. There will be a fuel surcharge of about $20.00 per hour (shared by both pilots) on long cross country trips in the Apache, since fuel prices away from our home base are considerably higher than our bulk fuel costs at home. Any hotel, restaurant and rental car costs will be additional.


http://www.prairieairservice.com/fli...r_training.htm
Initial Flight Instructor Certificate, Airplane Single Engine $ 3400.00

3 to 5 weeks: 15 hours Piper Arrow dual, 40 hours ground school and briefings
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot airplane single engine land with instrument rating, completion of (2) knowledge exams.
Note: Students with rusty commercial pilot maneuvers skills will require
additional flight time. Students with weak background knowledge and/or poor communications skills will require considerably more ground school before being able to present the required subject areas at the instructional level. Requires a large amount of self study and homework.
MORE INFORMATION | BACK TO TOP



Flight Instructor Instrument Rating $ 1250.00

3 days: 8 hours Piper Arrow dual, 6 hours ground school and briefings.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single (or multi) engine, completion of knowledge exam. Instrument currency and competency.
Note: Students who are rusty on instrument procedures will require additional training. Prior instructing experience is helpful.




Multi Engine Instructor Rating $ 1235.00

3 days: 6 hrs. dual, airplane for flight test 5 hrs. ground school & briefings, examiner’s fee additional.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single and multi engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single engine, 10 hours multi engine pilot in command.
Note: 200 hours of instructing experience is helpful. Students without much instructing experience will require additional ground and flight training.

I'm not going to take this road. I understand you trained there and they are a family type business. I'll accept their prices are very reasonable.

I still...Well, you know the rest.

-LAFF

Seriously did you ever think that maybe you werent good enough yet? Your a$$ isnt on the line, and maybe your instructor knows a little more than you (since he kind of went to school to figure out who is stupid and who isnt) All be it there are some time builders out there, but seriously, you were/are a presolo private and what do you really know?

I haven't been posting very long but have been reading most posts for about 6-7 months. And LAFF always seems to come off this way. I don't know what happened to you to make you so bitter towards smaller FBO's, but what are you going to do when ATP makes you this bitter. (don't know if they will but it could happen) I would wait untill you actually start training at ATP before you make such bold statements. I can make alot of things look good on paper, and design a cool website.

And I bet ALOT more people that are flying professionally went to a local FBO then went to a ratings mill. So the small FBO has been a pretty good bet over the last 75 years or so.

Its been a pretty good bet because for a while that was the only way availalbe besides the military. I guarantee that those numbers are shrinking, and they should, because most FBO's dont have the resources to provide training in TAA's. The FBO of the future will be for recreational flying, while the so called "pilot mills" will serve their purpose of creating professional aviators. That being said, ATP is a joke. Can you seriously tell me that someone can gain the experience necessary to be a professional aviator in 90 days? Have fun flying for pinnacle.

[quote=PositiveRate;105597] I can make alot of things look good on paper, and design a cool website. quote]

I know the army and airforce fooled a few of my friends with this. They told me they would be flying attack helo's and jets while I was widdling away flight instructing. Look at them now They pump gas for Helos and jets in the military.

I worked with a few ATP guys and although thier program seems like a good set up, I truely enjoyed making thier instructors look retarded time and time again. You will get the same thing where ever you go with instructors. Unless you find some of the few who do it for life.

It has nothing to do with paper and web sites. It has to do with 1st person accounts from people that trained with ATP.

I'm glad it worked for them.

-LAFF

Interesting point about FBOs and the future.

Whats wrong with Pinnacle? Are you making a off-color remark about their fatal accident a few years back? That had more to do with lack of leadership / airmanship by the CA then anything else. If any problems exist in the culture there it is something the professionals at Pinnacle will have to resolve. We can argue about it if you like, but what good will that do? You'll continue to take the low road and I'll point out that at the end of the day it comes down to leadership / professionalism.

BTW - the FAA has no issue with ATP and 121 airlines have no problems hiring their graduates. The AF turns out 90 day wonders on a regular basis at MAFB.

Sincerely,
LAFF

I've dealt with some great FBOs, and flying clubs, and awesome instructors. I've also seen and met the disparaging.

This whole thread is like Deja Vu from many other threads on many other boards.

You're the customer, fire them if you don't like them. Pretty simple. Be professional about it and you won't burn any bridges.

I also LOL @ all the folks who endlessly bash FBO, flight schools, particularly one part 61 operation, and have zero experience with the company.

Yeah I dunno, over 24 hired this month alone. It is legal, where did you hear it is difficult to explain. Pretty cut and dry, one would think. Also, those numbers are only going to get bigger with the majors sucking up all the regional CA's.

The AF turns out 90 day wonders huh? Not quite...

What do you call OTS?

-LAFF

OH My apologies... I thought you were talking about something else

There are two FBO operations in my city providing training in TAA's. One has an FTD set up for training on the equipment. That being said, I am sure that not all FBO training operations will have the money to put a TTA in their rental fleet.

The point behind places like AllATP's is not for the pilot to get experience, its for them to get their ratings quickly. That way, they can spend their time seeking the neccessary experience elsewhere. Personally, I think there is value in both approaches (FBO or pilot mill).

To the original poster: You have lost confidence in your CFI. IMO, you should end the relationship and move on. He should have been informing you on your progress all along, so the timing of your solo shouldnt have been a surprise. Keep in mind that the student carries some of the responsibility for progress. I only have limited experience as a CFI so far, but I have experienced situations where my students show up for a training flight unprepared, which only hurts them.

I know a few *very* experienced CFI's in my area that have the opinion that if you teach exactly to the regs and PTS, it would be difficult for a student to solo in less than 20 hours. I also know a couple of people that have soloed in quite a bit less, in one case, 8 hours. So, time to solo certainly can vary by quite a bit.

Smart ssa!

-LAFF

Why would someone pay $45,000 for their licenses and ratings when they can pay $30,000 for the exact same training at an FBO is beyond me.

Hey LAFF, I have a car I'd like to sell you. It blue books for $10,000, but you can have it for the ATP discount price of $15,000.

I am not saying ATP is bad. It is the best of the academies because it is the cheapest and most reasonable off all the academies. It is still more expensive than any FBO.

PM me and we can work out the details.

-LAFF

For what it's worth, I had a student that I solo'ed at 65 hours. I was his fourth instructor and I guess I was picked as a "last resort" before him being kicked out of the 141 program. The up-side is that he solo'ed, and is sort of on his way to doing something that he really wants to..., the down-side is that I doubt if he will have the ability to finish the private pilot course, and if that occurs he will certainly wash out when he gets to instruments...not to mention the fact that he's spent a TON of money and should be working on his instrument rating by now, instead of still trying to figure out how to flight plan...*sigh*

My point being, go ahead and compare yourself to others to see how you stand, and don't sweat the small stuff like a 10-15 hour difference between when you solo'ed. The important thing is that you DID solo (congrats, by the way), and you're on your way to that cert!

Another victim of the FBO / CFI rape.

I ended up spending 9 months and 9.5K on my PPL. IHMO - I paid 4K too much because I had to go thru two CFI before I found one I could work with. I'll never waste time / money at an FBO again...

-LAFF

you know LAFF, not everyone at ATP passes everything on the first try. Infact I bet they even have students who drop out of their program. Not everyone can fly , some people are just plain lazy and don't study on their own. Some students don't pick up on everything as fast as other students. Just because you went to a FBO and you didn't get done in the time you think you should have, doesn't mean every FBO is horrible and out to rape you of your money.

I got it done. I just had to juggle FBO CFIs and my military duties. I also paid 4K too much for a PPL. I paid too much because I was 'taken for a ride' by the first two CFIs. Its that simple.

-LAFF

Training
 

Everyone has a style and approach to training that suits them best. The FBO offers a closer home town feel, but often lacks in true expertise, equipment and availability. The ATP style has a fast and action packed "get er done" way but has higher costs due to newer equipment and higher overhead at the larger metropolitan airports.

The best answer is to not go to either and buy yourself a Cessna 152 or piper tomahawk and hire your own freelance CFI.

Skyhigh

Interesting, $9,500 for your PPL, ATP charges $8,995 for your PPL. So a difference of $505, I guess ATP is in on raping students too. But instead of paying 4k too much, you would have only paid 3.5k too much.

You missed my point. At ATP you're quoted a fixed price not strung alone so some CFI can build time on your dime.

Had I kown about this site I would have done my research. Had I known about ATP I would have gone there.

-LAFF

Don't forget that you get 85 hours (45 of which is cross country after your checkride) obviously it varies based on completion time for private checkride.

not to mention that XC is simulated instrument, getting you ready for the career phase...

apples to apples

Thanks...You're right. At www.allatps.com you get a good deal. WOW, I didn't realize how good a deal...



-LAFF

hahaha damn this is getting ridiculous

www.prairieairservice.com, a better deal!

The best deal of all:

http://www.erau.edu/db/flightdb/index.html

Yet the price is essentially the same, for the same rating. If you are getting strung along/raped at the FBO, then it has to be the same at ATP if the price is the same for the same rating.

What do you think CFIs at ATP do?? They are building time on your dime, they aren't doing it for free. It is the same, the difference is that at the FBO you can do it for less. At ATP you pay the fixed price and to get the most out of it, you have to pass your checkride in the exact minimum time required.

I heard that half of that XC time is Safety Pilot time, so effectively you get half of that in actual flight experience, the rest is sitting there watching out for other aircraft. Although I am not postive on that.

Either way you have to do your research, and find what will work for you. ATP works for some and not for others. FBOs may be the best bet for some. To blanketly claim that all FBOs are inferior and out to rob you is being just plain ignorant. There is no right way or wrong way, and there is no best way to do it. If there was a best way to do it, then the vast majority would be doing it that way, which is not the case.

Thank you for writing the above statement. You have to work hard and pass at min. time - which is all that is required by the FAA to be awarded your ratings. There is no need to be logging anything beyond the published FAA mins for flight training. Doing so is a waste of your money.

-LAFF

Not true. The FAA and the industry value safety time as a legitimate way for pilots to hone their SA and communications skills. However, it all depends on the two pilots and how effectively they utilize their time in the air. As far as the FAA and industry are concerned the time is valuable.

-LAFF

LOL...

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