Anyone else have trouble..
04-08-2016, 11:31 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by PotatoChip
JNB... Seriously? Where is "instruct" on the job description of a captain? Last I checked, airlines (and I have worked for a few) have employees known as instructors who fill this role quite nicely. First Officers are professional pilots with less seniority. Period.
Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan
I already hate being your FO.
Chip & Zap, I put your quotes in my reply, but I’m not really trying to single you out or direct my comments only to you.
Obviously I spent some time in the USAF, where at times almost every decision, action, radio call and control movement might be addressed positively or if necessary debriefed with corrections or techniques offered to for improved results on future missions.
Now, I know this isn’t the military and I’m not trying to turn a simple flight on an airliner or freighter flying from A to B into more than that. However, it’s rare that there isn’t something to learn from every flight we make. One of the most frustrating things I’ve experienced after entering the -121 world is the tendency for many pilots in either seat to gloss over errors both large and small and make no attempt to debrief and identify ways to avoid those errors in the future. In some cases, there is almost a sense that this process should be avoided and anyone (Captains usually – since they set the tone) who attempts to conduct a flight critique/debrief are somehow over-stepping. “I’m a professional pilot, just with less seniority, how dare he debrief or instruct me.”
I also don’t believe critique on small or large errors that occur during a revenue flight should be a one-way street (from left seat to right). Everyone has their days in either seat and we should always strive to improve. Also, only allowing someone the company has designated an "instructor" or "LCA" offer critique or instruction on specifically identified flights or sim events is a pretty short-sighted attitude, IMO.
That said, if a Captain with many years in the biz and thousands of hours on the jet being flown has a less experienced F/O who is making some new guy errors or just using a technique that gives less than optimum results – I think that Captain owes that F/O some feedback and maybe some instruction, if necessary. The Captain must also leave a free and clear avenue for feedback/critique on his performance as well.
I think the problems arise when Captains attempt to do this in real time while the jet is actually being flown. That helps no one – he might as well just take the jet because now he’s just turning that F/O into his puppet. Let the F/O fly the jet his way (unless, obviously it becomes a safety issue) and bring it up when the flight’s over. That’s instruction 101.
That F/O may be a professional pilot with less seniority, but if he thinks that somehow relieves him of his professional responsibility to improve his craft every chance he gets, then I have to start questioning just how professional he really is. Same goes for the Captain. Maybe whoever landed pranged it on due to an early power reduction or late flare. It might be identified and acknowledged after shutdown in 30 seconds and go no further than that. It just shouldn’t be ignored as if talking about it is somehow taboo. Sometimes things are more complex and might require a little more time to address.
Finally, I’ll throw out one more thing: As with any critique/debrief, the environment and the delivery will have a great deal to do with the results achieved. If everyone’s dog tired and just wants to get to the hotel, spending more than a minute or two while still on the jet discussing any big “show-stoppers” is probably not going to bear much fruit. Jot down a note or two if necessary and bring the debrief items up over a beer or dinner later. Unless it was a clear safety related issue that must be dealt with, I always make a point of asking the other guy(s) if we can debrief a few things (if there are any). If the other crew members are clearly resistant to discussing the flight, forcing the issue isn’t going to do any good. I’ll chalk it up to their insecurity and move on. Personally, I think it’s pretty foolish to ignore any opportunity to improve, but some guys are like that. I’ve probably learned almost as much in the bar with a glass of suds in my hand as I have in a sim, jet or debrief room.
04-09-2016, 06:59 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 327
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
Chip & Zap, I put your quotes in my reply, but I’m not really trying to single you out or direct my comments only to you.
Obviously I spent some time in the USAF, where at times almost every decision, action, radio call and control movement might be addressed positively or if necessary debriefed with corrections or techniques offered to for improved results on future missions.
Now, I know this isn’t the military and I’m not trying to turn a simple flight on an airliner or freighter flying from A to B into more than that. However, it’s rare that there isn’t something to learn from every flight we make. One of the most frustrating things I’ve experienced after entering the -121 world is the tendency for many pilots in either seat to gloss over errors both large and small and make no attempt to debrief and identify ways to avoid those errors in the future. In some cases, there is almost a sense that this process should be avoided and anyone (Captains usually – since they set the tone) who attempts to conduct a flight critique/debrief are somehow over-stepping. “I’m a professional pilot, just with less seniority, how dare he debrief or instruct me.”
I also don’t believe critique on small or large errors that occur during a revenue flight should be a one-way street (from left seat to right). Everyone has their days in either seat and we should always strive to improve. Also, only allowing someone the company has designated an "instructor" or "LCA" offer critique or instruction on specifically identified flights or sim events is a pretty short-sighted attitude, IMO.
That said, if a Captain with many years in the biz and thousands of hours on the jet being flown has a less experienced F/O who is making some new guy errors or just using a technique that gives less than optimum results – I think that Captain owes that F/O some feedback and maybe some instruction, if necessary. The Captain must also leave a free and clear avenue for feedback/critique on his performance as well.
I think the problems arise when Captains attempt to do this in real time while the jet is actually being flown. That helps no one – he might as well just take the jet because now he’s just turning that F/O into his puppet. Let the F/O fly the jet his way (unless, obviously it becomes a safety issue) and bring it up when the flight’s over. That’s instruction 101.
That F/O may be a professional pilot with less seniority, but if he thinks that somehow relieves him of his professional responsibility to improve his craft every chance he gets, then I have to start questioning just how professional he really is. Same goes for the Captain. Maybe whoever landed pranged it on due to an early power reduction or late flare. It might be identified and acknowledged after shutdown in 30 seconds and go no further than that. It just shouldn’t be ignored as if talking about it is somehow taboo. Sometimes things are more complex and might require a little more time to address.
Finally, I’ll throw out one more thing: As with any critique/debrief, the environment and the delivery will have a great deal to do with the results achieved. If everyone’s dog tired and just wants to get to the hotel, spending more than a minute or two while still on the jet discussing any big “show-stoppers” is probably not going to bear much fruit. Jot down a note or two if necessary and bring the debrief items up over a beer or dinner later. Unless it was a clear safety related issue that must be dealt with, I always make a point of asking the other guy(s) if we can debrief a few things (if there are any). If the other crew members are clearly resistant to discussing the flight, forcing the issue isn’t going to do any good. I’ll chalk it up to their insecurity and move on. Personally, I think it’s pretty foolish to ignore any opportunity to improve, but some guys are like that. I’ve probably learned almost as much in the bar with a glass of suds in my hand as I have in a sim, jet or debrief room.
04-13-2016, 06:06 PM
#33
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 3
I just flew from Hawaii to NC last month to get a fire patrol job. It's not just the jobs you go through now, but the people you meet. You can't just meet people around your local airport. You need to meet people far and wide to get opportunities the people at your airport won't know about.
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