Will skipping the CFIs hurt my future?
 

I've read a handful of threads on the no CFI topic but I'm not sure my scenario applies to them.

I'm currently a PPL certificate holder with 59TT. I have two options for airline pilot training - ATP and an FBO. ATP is the front runner for financial purposes mainly, and multi time. I met with an FBO today who has an interesting setup. Basically, his program would put me through the basics for airline pilot training except he leaves out all CFIs. His program would run me (my personal scenario) $30k rather than $60k at ATP. I would end up with less multi and no CFIs but the same TT - 200 or more. I know there are regionals that will hire without CFIs and I can build hours at scenic here in Vegas.

My concern is how my resume will look without the CFIs. Now, I could go back after starting at scenic or a regional and get those certs later while I'm building time for majors. The main reason for considering this is that I prefer the instruction from an FBO over ATP and I could only afford an FBO if the cost is closer to 30k.

I appreciate your time in responding. I'm super excited about earning my certs and I want to get out and earn time as quickly as possible. I just don't want to ruin my chances with the majors later on by cutting that corner. Thanks!

~ Dan

I know guys who didn't do the CFI thing and guys who did. There are food and bad pilots from both groups. The good pilots bring something from each of their backgrounds.

The biggest disadvantage to not doing your CFI is that when you finish your commercial certificate with 250 hours, your job options will be very limited. The CFI option opens lots of jobs and you learn something by being a CFI. You will also learn lots of things in non-CFI jobs but you get my point.

The FBO option dumps you on the street with a wet commercial. What are you going to do with it?

Honestly, probably not from an interview/resume perspective, because at the point of Skywest and higher etc., they want PIC/turbine/multi/TT (they may ask you why you decided to not get them)
but the CFI's will give you a level of understanding and comfort with flying that is hard to get through simply flying around.
Like you said, you could go to Scenic and build time and get them while you're there and do some instruction on the side.
That's actually a good idea, shows motivation and social interaction. Just make sure Scenic will consider you with low time/no CFI ;)
I started at Skywest from being an independent CFI and got on with relatively low time through ramping for them.
But I needed the CFI more for the time than the resume, many guys I flew with got their time from Scenic.

If you are only considering getting the CFI as a resume builder, or instructing "just to build time", skip it. The pilots that enter the CFI world with the thought that it's just to build time do a disservice to their students and the aviation world as a whole.

Regionals don't hire pilots with 200TT as you claim...they can't due to the regs. Maybe a place like Scenic can do it, but not the "regionals". They require an ATP.

If somebody will hire you with 200TT, you better latch onto that because it's rare.

A lot of people get the CFI to build hours, that's great as long as you provide good instruction. Some people don't need that because they have a plane or access to a plane/hrs/a job where they can do the same. Some people say they don't want to be a CFI because they don't want the responsibility, don't want to have to teach someone, etc. I'd be wary of these people, as airlines look for future captains that have these traits and qualities. By no means that does that require a CFI, but these are poor reasons to avoid it.

Agreed. Being willing and able to provide good instruction is the key.

Sure....that works too.

Again, agreed. Especially these days, the 2nd primary duty of a Captain is to teach the FOs how to be a good Captain when their time comes. It's a mentoring position. Of course, their first duty is to get the passengers, crew, and aircraft safely from point A to point B.

Unfortunately, in the recent past(3-5 years or so, in my experience), many up and coming pilots have the attitude of "I have 1500 hours, I'm ready to be a Captain at Legacy carrier XYZ". Now, maybe I'm curmudgeon in my old(40 something) age, but I think that a lot of the kids coming up in aviation today have a severely overinflated ego. In that same time, being a Captain has gone from a mentoring position to an "entitled" position, all other things be damned.

Aviation is going to be in a world of hurt in 20 years, IMO.

When one spends $100k or more worth of debt to get in that seat, it does tend to create a sense of entitlement.

If one is spending a hundred thousand to achieve pilot certification, then one is an idiot.

There is no justification for entitlement, having spent what's necessary to achieve certification. Upon completion of flight training with the basic certification, one is technically qualified insofar as certification, but without experience, flight time, or ability beyond the bare minimum. One is less than a dime a dozen, and scarcely marketable for much of anything, and one doesn't merit much pay or attention.

One is entitled to nothing. A sense of entitlement for a new pilot is akin to a teenager thinking the world should revolve around him or her. Merely because they want it does not make it so.

I hope you didn't have to spend $100k to get to the airlines :o. Our two year collegiate program for 0-CFII, tuition, books, checkrides, housing costs with a single room, etc, would still be under $100k.

I guess if you go to Embry Riddle or something similar you will spend $100,000+ when you include tuition and board, but to a certain extent the degree should be considered a separate investment from the pilot training.

Thank you! I appreciate the discussion.

We have 6 schools here in Vegas with one being ATP and the other 5 FBOs. The FBOs range from a run down looking but longest running operation that doesn't have a SIM or even a Multi to a newer place that has all new equipment including a SIM and all glass cockpits. We have yet another who completely switches up how they do their training - they do all ground school and written exams first for PPL, IFR, Commercial, etc and then spend the remainder of the time flying. They don't include the 3 CFIs in their package because they feel it's a waste of time and money right now when the regionals are hiring "anyone with a pulse".

Needless to say, it's not an easy choice to make. For me though, it may solely come down to finances. ATP being the only outfit offering loans with an APR less than 8% makes them the only choice for those without the cash to afford an FBO or personal loan. The FBO that doesn't do the CFIs has his program at roughly $30k which is more managable than the 50-60 elsewhere.

I think that I lean towards getting the CFIs for two reasons. First, as you all said, part of a captain's duties are to teach when necessary and having some experience with that would make me a better captain. Second, it allows me more opportunities for employment after school if an outfit like Scenic doesn't hire me.

This is a great place for information and advice and I am happy I found it. Thank you again for the responses.

Fly safe,

~ Dan

A 4 year Bachelor's degree, and flight training cost in excess of $100k. And no I don't mean ERAU or UND. Those are of course much more expensive.

Yep. 110k is what I hear quoted the most. Now, I already have my degree so that wouldn't make sense in my scenario.

No, they're not.

They can't.

Applicants need to be ATP qualified.

A four year degree isn't part of the cost of being a pilot (nor necessary to gain employment as a pilot). It's certainly not justification for entitlement, or the arrogance to feel entitled, and it doesn't entitle one to employment as a pilot. A four year degree is a degree. Not a pilot certificate. One may as well tack on mechanic certification, welding school, the police academy, and work experience as a soy bean farmer. All maybe useful additions for certain kinds of aviation employment as well...but none are part of the cost of learning to fly or being qualified to seek employment as a pilot.

Well then US Aviation has a great option for you! :D

As an in-state student, total cost for your associates and 0-CFII is approximately $67k+living costs. Two additional years at UNT would run you around $20K+ living costs. So that is $87k+ living costs for 0-CFII and a bachelor's degree.

I guess you could consider "living costs" part of the cost of training, but that is what a part time job is for.

If you want to graduate from the regionals it is

No, it's not. Are you implying that "graduating from the regionals" means another airline job?

Are you not aware that there are more places in the world to work? Neither life, nor the industry at large, is confined to a major airline, and there are many places in the industry where a degree is not required; many where it's not even considered.

Moreover, regardless of one's plans, the cost of a degree is irrelevant; it's not part of the cost of learning to fly. Don't blame the expense of becoming a pilot on the cost of a degree. It's a separate matter.

Regardless, the degree is no entitlement.

Getting your CFIs is not mandatory. But you had better be VERY confident in your ability to land a different job at 300 hours with a wet commercial. You'll need something to fill the gap between that and 1500 hours TT.

Do you have a 4 year degree and what is it in and GPA. If not with 59 hours I would focus on getting a good degree with a decent GPA as the best near term decision you can make. Put the flying on the back burner if you have not completed your degree.
If you have the degree and know you can get a job that will allow you to build time quickly then go the non CFI route.

C-150F IFR @$34/hr
 

My son's path was to buy an IFR C-150F ($17K) fly until hired. Took him ~400TT. Cost ~$35k. Including a multi add-on. Job offer at scenic (GCA) & Mokulele in HNL. PPL1/6/2014 job offer 6/3/2014. Don't screw around, get the time asap you only get 1 chance to get a low seniority number!

CFI Ratings aren't as important as TPIC.

Good luck!