Thai accident
09-20-2007, 06:10 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: B767A[ret.]
Posts: 593
Thai accident
Just received this yesterday. I CANNOT vouch for anything stated, but found it interesting. If true, sounds pretty scary. Every thing below this line was forwarded-----
THAI Airplane Crash...
I know a few guys who are flying as ex-pat pilots in Thailand in the MD-80. Just got this email a few days ago about the crash.
As much as we curse ALPA.....IT COULD BE MUCH WORSE!
Yeah, I thought the events of this crash is something I would share.
In my world it is absolutely heartbreaking. Those who remember, when
Jim Taft and I first came here, we understood immediately this event
would occur. That it took two years is amazing in itself.
Of course a company culture combined with crewmembers willing to
disregard safety standards made this crash predictable. One Two Go
disregards all Duty and Flight Time Limitations, required maintenance
inspections and weather mins. Again none of this can happen unless
pilots are culpable and the controlling authority looks the other
way.
Am always asked why am I still here? There is no morally good answer.
In a self serving way, I felt I found my purpose in the summer of
2006. The company began to hire ab initio Thai pilots. Their training
was lacking. I believed I could allow them to have experiences they
would not receive with anyone else, show them how to look at
situations (approaches, weather, fuel savings techniques) and think
differently. Most importantly how to save their lives from the
incredibly inept Captains working for One Two Go. As you learn the
rest of the story, I failed. Am not sure I will ever forgive myself.
To start with, the Captain, an Indonesian was the Chief Pilot. He had
failed his medical early this year and was grounded for two months.
It became established that he would fall asleep while at the
controls. Specially in the afternoon. The crash occurred around 3:40
pm. It was documented that he became spatially disorientated with the
Prime Minister of Afghanistan on board the aircraft on an approach
into Kabul. He was removed from all subsequent flights. On two other
occasions, First Officers shared stories that they had to take
control of the aircraft. (Heresay).
It will be established that fatigue was clearly a factor in this
crash. Both Captain and First Officer exceeded flight time
limitations the previous two days of the crash. They had flown 19+
hours in a 48 hour period while on duty for 30+ hours in the same
period. The sequence was in part, International, with the final
sector domestic. After completing the assignment, they were give16
hours off and then assigned 6 sectors (legs) on the day of the crash
and were assigned 6 sectors the day following the crash. The crash
occurred on their 3rd sector. The First Officer was working his 8th
consecutive day.
The First Officer was a Thai ab initio pilot. His name was Montri. A
wonderful person, highly respected, well educated. He was an only
son. He had worked as an engineer with Japan Airlines. He had
interviewed and was given a class date with Thai Airlines this
October. I had spent many hours with him, and his flying skills were
above average for his experience level. The company was abusing him
in that after sitting for months, he was called out to do his bounces
and he failed. As a result, the company withdrew 500 dollars a month
from his pay for his re-training. On the ground, Montri protected me
on at least one occasion. Another story for another day. Yeah, I
still find trouble on the ground. Thinkin its that Southern
California could care less laid back attitude.
From here on anything written is pure speculation. I have learned
from my own experiences that things are not always as they seem. It
appears Montri recognized they were in a bad situation and attempted
to go around. A lady friend of mine was in the tower at the time and
said Carmen, Montri (yes, we all know her) tried to go around but the
plane would not fly.... Windshear, compressor stall (witnesses claim
to have heard a loud bang) or just plain fatigue and lack of
experience with an inept Captain. Who knows. Pictures show flaps 15,
spoilers and thrust reverser on the left side stowed. It appears they
slammed onto the runway and slid off only traveling 60 meters. Som,
the ATC lady said they hit around the 2,000 foot marker.
As I am writing this, I have been told that 2 cabin crewmembers have
survived. Mae, was the lead and am being told she is out of surgery.
She always flirts with me and makes the old man smile. Yesterday and
last night was very very tough. Cabin crewmembers begging to bring
them home alive. It is the most helpless feeling I ever had. Much
crying, pain and anguish. It is unbearable at times. I am both angry
and sad. But time to put those feelings behind.
What happens now? Who knows, I am very tired, Have been exhausted for
a long time and .... according to all here I get preferential
treatment. Yeah, apparently I am the only one here who gets two
consecutive days off every week. I can say that I do not fly
illegally and do not knowingly fly unsafe equipment. I told them
upfront, I do not and will not fly in the manner they are accustomed
to. I also told them I will work hard and they will see things
accomplished that perhaps they have never seen before. For two years,
they have honored their part and for me, I will let my record speak
for itself.
Sorry for being long. Thinkin this is my release. Much pain right
now. Those people did not have to die. My friend Montri is gone. But
there is joy in learning Mae is alive. No one should have to
experience this.
THAI Airplane Crash...
I know a few guys who are flying as ex-pat pilots in Thailand in the MD-80. Just got this email a few days ago about the crash.
As much as we curse ALPA.....IT COULD BE MUCH WORSE!
Yeah, I thought the events of this crash is something I would share.
In my world it is absolutely heartbreaking. Those who remember, when
Jim Taft and I first came here, we understood immediately this event
would occur. That it took two years is amazing in itself.
Of course a company culture combined with crewmembers willing to
disregard safety standards made this crash predictable. One Two Go
disregards all Duty and Flight Time Limitations, required maintenance
inspections and weather mins. Again none of this can happen unless
pilots are culpable and the controlling authority looks the other
way.
Am always asked why am I still here? There is no morally good answer.
In a self serving way, I felt I found my purpose in the summer of
2006. The company began to hire ab initio Thai pilots. Their training
was lacking. I believed I could allow them to have experiences they
would not receive with anyone else, show them how to look at
situations (approaches, weather, fuel savings techniques) and think
differently. Most importantly how to save their lives from the
incredibly inept Captains working for One Two Go. As you learn the
rest of the story, I failed. Am not sure I will ever forgive myself.
To start with, the Captain, an Indonesian was the Chief Pilot. He had
failed his medical early this year and was grounded for two months.
It became established that he would fall asleep while at the
controls. Specially in the afternoon. The crash occurred around 3:40
pm. It was documented that he became spatially disorientated with the
Prime Minister of Afghanistan on board the aircraft on an approach
into Kabul. He was removed from all subsequent flights. On two other
occasions, First Officers shared stories that they had to take
control of the aircraft. (Heresay).
It will be established that fatigue was clearly a factor in this
crash. Both Captain and First Officer exceeded flight time
limitations the previous two days of the crash. They had flown 19+
hours in a 48 hour period while on duty for 30+ hours in the same
period. The sequence was in part, International, with the final
sector domestic. After completing the assignment, they were give16
hours off and then assigned 6 sectors (legs) on the day of the crash
and were assigned 6 sectors the day following the crash. The crash
occurred on their 3rd sector. The First Officer was working his 8th
consecutive day.
The First Officer was a Thai ab initio pilot. His name was Montri. A
wonderful person, highly respected, well educated. He was an only
son. He had worked as an engineer with Japan Airlines. He had
interviewed and was given a class date with Thai Airlines this
October. I had spent many hours with him, and his flying skills were
above average for his experience level. The company was abusing him
in that after sitting for months, he was called out to do his bounces
and he failed. As a result, the company withdrew 500 dollars a month
from his pay for his re-training. On the ground, Montri protected me
on at least one occasion. Another story for another day. Yeah, I
still find trouble on the ground. Thinkin its that Southern
California could care less laid back attitude.
From here on anything written is pure speculation. I have learned
from my own experiences that things are not always as they seem. It
appears Montri recognized they were in a bad situation and attempted
to go around. A lady friend of mine was in the tower at the time and
said Carmen, Montri (yes, we all know her) tried to go around but the
plane would not fly.... Windshear, compressor stall (witnesses claim
to have heard a loud bang) or just plain fatigue and lack of
experience with an inept Captain. Who knows. Pictures show flaps 15,
spoilers and thrust reverser on the left side stowed. It appears they
slammed onto the runway and slid off only traveling 60 meters. Som,
the ATC lady said they hit around the 2,000 foot marker.
As I am writing this, I have been told that 2 cabin crewmembers have
survived. Mae, was the lead and am being told she is out of surgery.
She always flirts with me and makes the old man smile. Yesterday and
last night was very very tough. Cabin crewmembers begging to bring
them home alive. It is the most helpless feeling I ever had. Much
crying, pain and anguish. It is unbearable at times. I am both angry
and sad. But time to put those feelings behind.
What happens now? Who knows, I am very tired, Have been exhausted for
a long time and .... according to all here I get preferential
treatment. Yeah, apparently I am the only one here who gets two
consecutive days off every week. I can say that I do not fly
illegally and do not knowingly fly unsafe equipment. I told them
upfront, I do not and will not fly in the manner they are accustomed
to. I also told them I will work hard and they will see things
accomplished that perhaps they have never seen before. For two years,
they have honored their part and for me, I will let my record speak
for itself.
Sorry for being long. Thinkin this is my release. Much pain right
now. Those people did not have to die. My friend Montri is gone. But
there is joy in learning Mae is alive. No one should have to
experience this.
09-20-2007, 11:39 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Contract purgatory
Posts: 701
Interesting.
I was quasi-offered a job there in 2004 on the 747 classic, which was on my licence. They wanted me to pay for $10K worth of touch and goes to get up to speed, so I said no thanks.
One of our guy's from a private charter in NZ went there on the 757 and said it was more disorganized and the maintenance was terrible. He didn't last long.
Finally, a guy I spoke to personally who had flown there for two weeks before quitting; had a duct leek on the 757 that maintenance thought was OK.
From what I have seen personally and heard from others, this letter jives completely and it was just a matter of time for Orient Thai. Too bad it won't be the last time this happens.
It would be interesting if other Orient Thai/12go pilots had a comment. . .
I was quasi-offered a job there in 2004 on the 747 classic, which was on my licence. They wanted me to pay for $10K worth of touch and goes to get up to speed, so I said no thanks.
One of our guy's from a private charter in NZ went there on the 757 and said it was more disorganized and the maintenance was terrible. He didn't last long.
Finally, a guy I spoke to personally who had flown there for two weeks before quitting; had a duct leek on the 757 that maintenance thought was OK.
From what I have seen personally and heard from others, this letter jives completely and it was just a matter of time for Orient Thai. Too bad it won't be the last time this happens.
It would be interesting if other Orient Thai/12go pilots had a comment. . .
09-20-2007, 02:45 PM
#4
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Thanks for the story
Sawadee Krub Joel Payne,
First of all, thank you very much for sharing the story. I've heard a lot of horror stories out of Orient-Thai and One-Two-Go from friends of mine as well. It's sad to see this happen but as you expected, so was I. Matter of fact, I've taken their flight once and I keep wondering how they are still in business with many delays. The planes are quite old but since I'm a pilot too, I could've careless. The only thing, though, is I grew up there and I do know many of loop holes that many companies jumped through.
So, have you seen any changes there at the company yet? How about yourself, still working there? As far as I know, PB and BKK air are the better choices since THAI won't work with foreigners. I sure do hope this will change things over there, but I just don't expect it so much since "anything goes" in Thailand.
By the way, a daughter of my aunt's friend was killed on that flight too. She had just finished training 3 weeks ago and was doing a stand-by that day, until someone called out.
If you have time, please share more stories.
tg020
P.S.As for myself, I'm on the opposite road of you. I'm Thai but living in the US. I just recently got on with the first part 121 airline here in the US. Hope to go back to fly in TH or Asia in the very near future as soon as I have my B.S.
First of all, thank you very much for sharing the story. I've heard a lot of horror stories out of Orient-Thai and One-Two-Go from friends of mine as well. It's sad to see this happen but as you expected, so was I. Matter of fact, I've taken their flight once and I keep wondering how they are still in business with many delays. The planes are quite old but since I'm a pilot too, I could've careless. The only thing, though, is I grew up there and I do know many of loop holes that many companies jumped through.
So, have you seen any changes there at the company yet? How about yourself, still working there? As far as I know, PB and BKK air are the better choices since THAI won't work with foreigners. I sure do hope this will change things over there, but I just don't expect it so much since "anything goes" in Thailand.
By the way, a daughter of my aunt's friend was killed on that flight too. She had just finished training 3 weeks ago and was doing a stand-by that day, until someone called out.
If you have time, please share more stories.
tg020
P.S.As for myself, I'm on the opposite road of you. I'm Thai but living in the US. I just recently got on with the first part 121 airline here in the US. Hope to go back to fly in TH or Asia in the very near future as soon as I have my B.S.
09-21-2007, 12:26 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: E190
Posts: 172
Its sad when stuff like this happened. Reading this thread just poped open in my head an article i just read on the latest issue of flying magazine..."I learned from that..." great article. Talks about a captains experince with his extremely rookie FO.
I guess nothing beats experience. Being a low time pilot wishing to be riding a rj or so, stuff like this really puts my feet on the ground.
We really ***** about the FAA and how much of a pain in the a$$ they are but it seems like they are the best of the worst in the flying world.
I guess nothing beats experience. Being a low time pilot wishing to be riding a rj or so, stuff like this really puts my feet on the ground.
We really ***** about the FAA and how much of a pain in the a$$ they are but it seems like they are the best of the worst in the flying world.
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