To "Emirates" or "not to Emirates"
02-19-2008, 05:05 AM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A332/A340
Posts: 69
TP, while I do agree that EK is not as bad as Eva (yet), I do feel the need to point out 1 very big difference between the career set-backs you have dealt with and the present situation at Emirates. The economics of flying in North America were at an all-time low in the early 2000's, BEFORE 9/11. We all know what happened after.
As pilots, we could look in the cabin and see empty airplanes and KNOW what was coming. And they did. Everyone faced lay-off, downgrades, mergers and worse. You could blame lots of people, but with no passengers, the pain was inevitable.
Now let’s look at Emirates Airlines. You study the economics and determine that the quick command, good routes and reasonable pay are worth moving your family half-way around the world and denying your parents the chance to see their grandkids grow up. You gamble that an act of terrorism or changing economics won't ruin your plans.
And you win. This year, Emirates will make over $1, 000, 000, 000.00 profits. That is not a misprint. Emirates will make over 1 billion USD in PROFIT this fiscal year.
In the face of these record profits, for the 5+ years I've been here, about every 18 months there has been a claw-back. But they don't even own up to it?! They call it "cost neutral" or a "safety issue" to balance the schedules.
(As an aside, for the 2nd year in a row, I have no leave during school holidays. This year, I was given 30 days, not the 42 that's in my contract, and none of it is "prime time." Without the ability to string together at least 10 days, how will I visit my family on the West Coast of NA with my kids??)
So yes, like you I've had worse things happen in my career and like I say, I always try to look at the big picture. These latest changes are not life threatening. But given the amount of money the company is making and the fact that they're trying to attract pilots, what can we expect when things slow down? Pretty scary thought...
As pilots, we could look in the cabin and see empty airplanes and KNOW what was coming. And they did. Everyone faced lay-off, downgrades, mergers and worse. You could blame lots of people, but with no passengers, the pain was inevitable.
Now let’s look at Emirates Airlines. You study the economics and determine that the quick command, good routes and reasonable pay are worth moving your family half-way around the world and denying your parents the chance to see their grandkids grow up. You gamble that an act of terrorism or changing economics won't ruin your plans.
And you win. This year, Emirates will make over $1, 000, 000, 000.00 profits. That is not a misprint. Emirates will make over 1 billion USD in PROFIT this fiscal year.
In the face of these record profits, for the 5+ years I've been here, about every 18 months there has been a claw-back. But they don't even own up to it?! They call it "cost neutral" or a "safety issue" to balance the schedules.
(As an aside, for the 2nd year in a row, I have no leave during school holidays. This year, I was given 30 days, not the 42 that's in my contract, and none of it is "prime time." Without the ability to string together at least 10 days, how will I visit my family on the West Coast of NA with my kids??)
So yes, like you I've had worse things happen in my career and like I say, I always try to look at the big picture. These latest changes are not life threatening. But given the amount of money the company is making and the fact that they're trying to attract pilots, what can we expect when things slow down? Pretty scary thought...
02-19-2008, 07:59 AM
#22
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: TEMPORARY ACCOMMODATION
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Dune
atpcliff:
The current President of Emirates Airlines, Tim Clark, has gone on record as saying there will never be basings at Emirates as long as he is with the company. . ...
atpcliff:
The current President of Emirates Airlines, Tim Clark, has gone on record as saying there will never be basings at Emirates as long as he is with the company. . ...
Originally Posted by Gillegan
This is absolutely true. You would be foolish to make your plans based on anything else.
Looking at your current plans for aircraft orders (based on ACP info)....
45-B777's
56-A380's
70-A350's
......your fleet is going to almost triple.
Is DXB large enough to handle all these aircrafts?
One might think you guys would have to look elsewhere for another base.
P.S. I absolutely did not make my decision to join Emirates based on this ignorant conclusion!!!!
02-19-2008, 10:04 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B777
Posts: 121
Originally Posted by spitfire1500
Recently I did a 4 day layover in Dubai and unexpectedly ran into some old friends now at Emirates (in the Crown Plaza bar)..they are single and seem to love it...but in the same few hours we were screamed at by an Iraqi prostitute! Who told me I was evil and would be struck dead, then wanted to come spend the night for a few$. I dont think I could live there...besides a beer was about 9 bucks!!
02-19-2008, 04:54 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
Originally Posted by Philly Boy
Question.....
Looking at your current plans for aircraft orders (based on ACP info)....
45-B777's
56-A380's
70-A350's
......your fleet is going to almost triple.
Is DXB large enough to handle all these aircrafts?
One might think you guys would have to look elsewhere for another base.
Looking at your current plans for aircraft orders (based on ACP info)....
45-B777's
56-A380's
70-A350's
......your fleet is going to almost triple.
Is DXB large enough to handle all these aircrafts?
One might think you guys would have to look elsewhere for another base.
Dubai World Central
Typhoonpilot
02-19-2008, 07:11 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Contract purgatory
Posts: 701
Those profit numbers are interesting. I read an article from a couple of years ago that said the Emirates Group, which includes DNATA, made half a billion. The airline itself made significantly less however, something in the range of low millions (I'll dig up the numbers).
I know that on the Tasman EK loses money hand over fist, as the economics don't support half empty airplanes and LCC prices. We barely make money on that route, in fact this past year was the first in many that we did, and we pretty much own it with QF. So where is all that money made? Even with the claw backs you guy's do pretty well money wise flying there. When I was in Bahrain I knew some FA's and they did OK as well, plus the housing was included. I get that, out of your main base at least, your fuel costs are well below ours, but at some point, to make any profit on long haul, the airline has to win as far as yield, and yield comes from filling business and first; not backpackers in the tail. I'll get in trouble here for comparing EK to Qatar and Gulf, but they bleed money and Qatar doesn't expect any change until 2011.
Are you guy's that full on most of the routes? Are the premium seats getting filled all the time? It just appears, at times and from afar, that the Middle East airline scene is full of Sheiks trying to see who has the biggest. . .
Why mess with the pilots at all when it is very clear that they will not be able to sustain the current and projected growth, even with cut rate S American and SE Asian pilots (just cut rate price wise chaps, I'm sure you're all kickass drivers).
I know that on the Tasman EK loses money hand over fist, as the economics don't support half empty airplanes and LCC prices. We barely make money on that route, in fact this past year was the first in many that we did, and we pretty much own it with QF. So where is all that money made? Even with the claw backs you guy's do pretty well money wise flying there. When I was in Bahrain I knew some FA's and they did OK as well, plus the housing was included. I get that, out of your main base at least, your fuel costs are well below ours, but at some point, to make any profit on long haul, the airline has to win as far as yield, and yield comes from filling business and first; not backpackers in the tail. I'll get in trouble here for comparing EK to Qatar and Gulf, but they bleed money and Qatar doesn't expect any change until 2011.
Are you guy's that full on most of the routes? Are the premium seats getting filled all the time? It just appears, at times and from afar, that the Middle East airline scene is full of Sheiks trying to see who has the biggest. . .
Why mess with the pilots at all when it is very clear that they will not be able to sustain the current and projected growth, even with cut rate S American and SE Asian pilots (just cut rate price wise chaps, I'm sure you're all kickass drivers).
02-19-2008, 11:50 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
Originally Posted by KoruPilot
Those profit numbers are interesting. I read an article from a couple of years ago that said the Emirates Group, which includes DNATA, made half a billion. The airline itself made significantly less however, something in the range of low millions (I'll dig up the numbers).
I know that on the Tasman EK loses money hand over fist, as the economics don't support half empty airplanes and LCC prices. We barely make money on that route, in fact this past year was the first in many that we did, and we pretty much own it with QF. So where is all that money made? Even with the claw backs you guy's do pretty well money wise flying there. When I was in Bahrain I knew some FA's and they did OK as well, plus the housing was included. I get that, out of your main base at least, your fuel costs are well below ours, but at some point, to make any profit on long haul, the airline has to win as far as yield, and yield comes from filling business and first; not backpackers in the tail. I'll get in trouble here for comparing EK to Qatar and Gulf, but they bleed money and Qatar doesn't expect any change until 2011.
Are you guy's that full on most of the routes? Are the premium seats getting filled all the time? It just appears, at times and from afar, that the Middle East airline scene is full of Sheiks trying to see who has the biggest. . .
I know that on the Tasman EK loses money hand over fist, as the economics don't support half empty airplanes and LCC prices. We barely make money on that route, in fact this past year was the first in many that we did, and we pretty much own it with QF. So where is all that money made? Even with the claw backs you guy's do pretty well money wise flying there. When I was in Bahrain I knew some FA's and they did OK as well, plus the housing was included. I get that, out of your main base at least, your fuel costs are well below ours, but at some point, to make any profit on long haul, the airline has to win as far as yield, and yield comes from filling business and first; not backpackers in the tail. I'll get in trouble here for comparing EK to Qatar and Gulf, but they bleed money and Qatar doesn't expect any change until 2011.
Are you guy's that full on most of the routes? Are the premium seats getting filled all the time? It just appears, at times and from afar, that the Middle East airline scene is full of Sheiks trying to see who has the biggest. . .
In the last fiscal year Emirates' profit was $844 million while Dnata's net profit was $98 million. Breakeven load factor was 59.9% with an overall load factor of 65.1%.
Those trans-Tasman routes have very low load factos but haul a lot of cargo. It's been ahwile since I've been down that way but over 30 tonnes cargo wasn't uncommon.
Business class is full on most flights. First Class a little less so, but reasonably high percentage.
The numbers aren't fake. They have a lot of revenue from Pax, Cargo, handling, Duty Free, catering, etc.
Qatar and Etihad start a route with hoping that it will become profitable in 3 years. Emirates starts a route knowing it will be profitable within 3-6 months. That is a big difference.
TP
02-20-2008, 12:04 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Contract purgatory
Posts: 701
Very nice indeed, but why the heck do they think it's a good idea to mess with the pilots? I stand absolutely corrected on my numbers as well. I was thinking of an article that ran their 2003/04 numbers and I went to double check; should have done before I said anything. Profit for the period was $3.8 billion with $429 million coming from the airline. Considering QF regularly makes half a billion and our little outfit does 1/4 billion it does seam reasonable. Too bad a company like AA can't figure it out as well.
I understand that Qatar goes to KL 24 times per week. That seams like a lot to me. I knew some guy's in management at Gulf and that one is a no brainer.
So EK is nothing like Eva, but do you guy's see it going that way; staying on the downward course that it is on? Or will they have to do something to keep people, and continue to get a reasonable calibre of pilot. . . or, is it really getting that bad?
I understand that Qatar goes to KL 24 times per week. That seams like a lot to me. I knew some guy's in management at Gulf and that one is a no brainer.
So EK is nothing like Eva, but do you guy's see it going that way; staying on the downward course that it is on? Or will they have to do something to keep people, and continue to get a reasonable calibre of pilot. . . or, is it really getting that bad?
02-20-2008, 01:24 AM
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A332/A340
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by KoruPilot
Very nice indeed, but why the heck do they think it's a good idea to mess with the pilots?...So EK is nothing like Eva, but do you guy's see it going that way; staying on the downward course that it is on? Or will they have to do something to keep people, and continue to get a reasonable calibre of pilot. . . or, is it really getting that bad?
From a broad view I've always thought EK had very good top management, i.e. President and higher, but really poor management at the VP level. I still think that's true, especially in Flight Ops, but I don't know why it's run that way. The Exec VP, Sr VP and below are driven by a Performance Management program that rewards them handsomely if they can beat budget and performance targets. Subsequently we get beat up on as the fiscal year end approaches. (March 31). For sure it's short term thinking that hurts long term planning, but there you go...
The latest changes in and of themselves are not huge, but if you stay here long enough, it's like 'death by a thousand cuts.' Each year they chip away at the pay package. (Many of us actually get as bent out of shape by the dishonest way they present these cuts as the cuts themselves.)
Will they still attract guys? They've always been very lucky in that whenever they've needed a huge influx of pilots some airline somewhere in the world shuts down. For example, when Canada 3000 shutdown, EK had 300 fully qualified pilots at its doorstep. Right now, I think they're counting on a US recession and the reported mergers to send American pilots their way. They also have another ace up the sleeve in that they can easily lower the hiring minima with no real drama and open the door to many more applicants.
Despite my occasional rants here, my family and I continue to like our life(style) and so we're staying for the next while. However, I think it's important for guys considering the move to realize that there's a lot of pretty ugly crap that goes on here and you have to either put up with it or get out. There's no 3rd choice...
Anyway, I could write a book on the subject, but there are a few thoughts and as always, I'm interested in other viewpoints.
BC
