If YOU could reverse the clock... EXPAT's
 

Hello All,

So, lets imagine that we are talking to our newly graduated son/daughter. He/she has just completed there CFI and began instructing at a busy flight school. They look you in the eyes and say dad/mom... The only thing I can think of is flying in Asia, it is such a dream to me. What would you tell them, that you would have done differently to get to the expat phase of your career.

I would have done it sooner.

FO

I would give them a long talk on the benefit of working in your own country, preferably for the best major in that country. I would tell them that for the majority expat flying is something you do not aspire to. It is something that is forced on you by circumstance. Company went bankrupt; got furloughed; screwed out of ever being a captain do to a bad seniority list integration; never able to get on with that major in the first place; felony conviction (yes, I've met some); etc.

I'd tell them if they want adventure early in their career they should go flying the bush somewhere ( Alaska, Africa, PNG ). Then come home to the States; settle down; and get to that major as soon as they can.


Typhoonpilot

I echo Typhoon's sentiments..

There is no way I could have foreseen my position now when I left my office job out of college and decided to instruct. I saw many under appreciated years of regional flying and with a little luck a shot at the majors. I set some personal goals and a rough timeline with the notion that if it didn't work out, the office jobs would still be there.

My path started out in that direction, and it was some rather uncommon twists that had me in the right place at the right time with the right type to be hired by a foreign carrier that wasn't a low cost FO puppy mill that paid peanuts.

A couple different decisions along the way, or even a class or two difference in seniority would have taken me a completely different route without my knowledge.

As the man said.. it's a circumstance not and ambition.

This is a very difficult question that cannot fit into a neat few paragraphs answer, first of all the aviation world that exists today is very different than the one I grew up when I was getting my hours, second the expat pilots world is very different than the one that existed only a couple of years ago. Aviation is very fluid and dynamic, everyone is talking about the upcoming hiring at the majors and how many pilots will be hired yadda, yadda! But can we really guarantee that this will be the case? When I got hired at my first major job, if you would have told me that I would be in Japan working contract work, I would have told you that you were delusional, after all, back then the economy was booming and the mainline carriers were hiring hundreds every month, there is no way you can foresee how things will turnout in your career, sure, the main goal should be to get hired at your career job and have a ten minute commute with 18 days a month, but to try to predict what path will give you the more stability is silly on all itself since there is no stability in this business.
As a pilot you should try to get the golden ticket and go with the career job, but whom the hell knows what that is? You never expected Eastern and Pan Am to go down and you certainly never expected that an operator of a few Falcons flying freight would become the FedEx of today.
I am in that situation today as a matter of fact, my son is talking pilot, what I tell him is that he should forge a strong criteria of what he would consider acceptable and unacceptable, form his character around those values and forge ahead with whatever the industry throws at him without compromising those values. The rest is just luck and timing, anyone that claims what path would be best for a young aspiring pilot is basing it on what they would like this industry to be, not the unpredictable and heartless career it is.

I should have gone to law school, then open a firm specializing in aviation bankruptcy law.

I would tell them I would pay for them to go to back to nursing/HVAC/IT school and leave the flying for personal enjoyment.

What I would say really would depend on how open that individual is other cultures. My 5th airline is an Expat job and I love it as do many of the guys I work with but you really have to be open to new things.

I would tell them to get a job at a major airline (not LCC) in the US that has a base in their hometown.

Sorry, just IMHO... Even a USair career is a lot better than commuting across the world to a bunker in the desert where they take your passport away.
Yes, you get to fly a 777 or 380 at 27 and live in the towers with a bunch of FA's. You will have some cool pictures to put on facebook, but it will get old soon and you will look back at it as waisted time.

Solid family (and life in the US) is where you will be happy.

Don't forget to develop yourself in something esle so you could make your millions and not fly like a slave and shake everytime you go for a medical when you are 45+.

The world has changed and the changes have caught up to the USA. It seems now we have to pay our "dues" by flying for regionals for low pay just to get a chance of landing at SWA, Alaska, FDX, or Delta. Everyone else pays squat wages. The competition among pilots to get a job at those four mentioned airlines will be intense like a Cowboys Redskins game.

There are some tax advantages of working overseas.
In many Mideast countries there are NO income taxes and I would say no union dues either. I would say do a present value calculation for all current and future income. One for the USA and one for an expat job. I am sure the expat job will get you a larger sum of money at the end of a career.

What are you talking about....that was the way it HAS been.

There were NO regionals circa 1978, at least on the scale there is today. There Piper Navajo's or Twin Otters as standalone commuters and a couple of Shorts linked up to US Air.

Back them if you had 3,000TT you were golden. National airlines bragged how their applicants had 2,000 hours of turbojet time.

I think we have different points of view.

As I posted before, I agree in concept that a young pilot should as a base plan go for a career at a major/stablished carrier. Regretably that is not the way this career works for the majority of people, only a few (percentage wise) of pilots do get hired and accumulate enough seniority to not become furlough fodder, but the vast majority falls into circumstances that send you on another direction, back at the beginning of the 90's I got hired at what I though was my career golden ticket, I came back to the US from a corporate gig abroad to my "last job in aviation:D" the downturn of 91 changed the whole aviation scene, even the job that you now suggest as a good career path wasn't at all expected to survive back then. I certainly didn't plan to have to go back to the expat market and I wasn't waisting time, time would have been wasted working at a supermarket to wait for the aviation jobs to pick up again, mid 90's again went for another carrier job that didn't pinned out and then again at the end of 2,000 getting hired and 9/11 finding me in the pool and getting stuck in regional purgatory, What time you figure that I have wasted in my career? I have been very active in the pursuit of the mainline carrier job and in fact have been very lucky at getting hired, the jobs simply didn't materialized and that is the story of the majority of pilots, the career at the majors happen to a small percentage of pilots. For me the expat market has been a very good backup plan and I don't feel that time has been wasted, or you feel that I should have stayed in regional purgatory and wait for this so called hiring boom? Sorry but I don't subscribe to the idea that I should have stayed put and earn 40% of what I have earned in the same time period, not withstanding the fact that at 48, the time to start at the bottom of the pile has come and gone.

Another concept that surprises me is that people really believe that if you choose (by circumstances in life and not by original design) to explore the expat opportunities somehow your family life will suffer, or it will be unfulfilling in any way:confused: that concept just boggles my mind, What makes you think expats don't have a solid family life? As a matter of fact, I know very few expats that are unhappy with what they are doing, I certainly enjoy it and I will look back on it as a great opportunity/ adventure and learning experience, not as waisted time. And of course I make more than double what my colleagues that didn't get furloughed or chose jobs that survived make. I'm not saying it works for everybody, but your theory that I'll be happier on reserve as an F/O at USAir, specially with the merger with AA looming (wait until they mix the APA boys to that east vs west feud, Oh boy, it is going to be interesting to watch) I think that is ludicrous.

I flew 13 years for a major in the US, and flew the last four years at two contract jobs. I enjoyed the contract jobs far more than I ever enjoyed my job in the US. I am going back to the US in Feb to my old job. Hopefully it will be better.
The airline industry has never been stable, but in the US it might be becoming stable for the first time, ever. At least I hope so. If not I will quite happily go back to contract flying.

Advice to newbies? I think in the future corporate will pay much better than the airlines. Why?
Who gets paid better, the city bus driver, or the CEO's limo driver? We are flying around with Ma and Pa Kettle in the back, and over time, our pay is going down to reflect the customers we are servicing. Sad but true.

I can't even imagine what a debacle an AMR/USair merger would be. Not just labor, but route networks. AMR would spend billions shrinking the combined entity 20-30%, and shutting half of USair's base's. It doesn't make any sense to me other than killing off a competitor by merging with it.

Advise for newbies??? Get a four year degree in area other than aviation, mass communication, arts. Get a degree that will get oneself a job in a solid career. Get a masters too if one can stick it out while getting their feet wet in aviation. Try for that corproate job.

Actually, a quick Google search shows average bus drivers salaries and average limo drivers salaries are very comparable.
But your logic is flawed anyway. There are good and bad jobs in corporate as well as part 121. I personally enjoy my job, and wouldn't trade for even the best corporate job out there. I'm not sure who's flying Ma and Pa Kettle, but they're paying the cost of the ticket, just like anyone else.
Just out of curiosity, why are you returning to your old job, if you enjoy your ex-pat job more?

Jughead;
I am not sure I agree. Probably a "rental" limo driver doesn't make to much, but I bet Bill Gates's limo driver makes a bunch. In the mid 90's, at least once a week I had a celeb, sports figure, etc sitting in first class. By the mid 2000's, almost never. the major's salaries have been going down forever. DAL and UAL just signed contracts that approximately equal their bankruptcy contracts of 7-8 years ago when adjusted for inflation. It keeps getting worse.

Why come back?

I didn't come up through the civilian flying ranks, and don't have the same mindset as far as jobs. It turns out my "mindset" was wrong. I broke my leg 5 months ago, All of a sudden, having a secure job was very comforting.

My deal at my old airline is a voluntary furlough, for up to 10 years. But they have to be hiring for me to return. They have only hired about 2 years out of the last 10. It just looks like a good time to return. If the airline does well, I do well. If the economy tanks, again, I can go right back to the contract world. Either way I win. I will return to contract flying at the first opportunity. I had a great time.

Right on - to each his own. I like my job - but really wouldn't recommend the career to anyone. I'm thankful neither of my teenage sons has ever shown any interest in aviation.
Honestly, my company seems more on-track now than ever before. I'm thankful for my job, but never forget luck and timing were, and always will be, my best friends.
Good luck.

Sorry to hear about the leg. That said, it was always something I worried about when I had a contract job and one of the reasons why I'm not real hot on contract flying overseas as a career. The U.S. majors offer far better benefits for such circumstances. I.E. you won't lose your job if you break your leg and you won't lose much pay. Not so true in the expat world. I'm lucky in that with my job I could break my leg or have some other health problem and keep a full base salary for up to one year, but once that year is up the job goes away. Most contract jobs do not offer anything close to that.

I'm also not so sure about the corporate pilot world. I've watched dozen of pilots lose their job in the corporate world over the years. All too often it is very sudden. The "1%" are becoming targets for the 99% ( 47% ). Their theft of our pensions and continually pushing us down into servitude is not going to last much longer before their is a true uprising and change. When that happens many of those jobs flying the investment banker, mutual fund manager, hedge fund manager, etc will evaporate.


TP

our neighbor here in Dubai broke his shoulder down the street, out on a 4 wheeler in the sandbox. Out for over a year, with all the injuries he had. Emirates has paid his full salary the whole time. You and I are lucky to be here, as you read some of these other stories. I hear the contract gig can be very tough in that regard.

Hogwash. You're actually implying that because one limo driver makes money, then by logic all corporate pilots make good money? Man, you've got to do some more research. :D

BTW, NetJets has 450 pilots on furlough and I'm fairly certain they're on a concessionary contract. They make less then many Legacy pilots.

My point being, there will always good and bad jobs in both fields. While it's true that the CEO of Microsoft flies around in a private jet, can the same be said for all of his employees that travel on business? Corporate business accounts are huge for airlines.

Typhoon - what's your LTD after the year?

Most U.S. carriers have fairly decent LTD programs due to the risk of losing your medical.

Disability insurance is a standard item on most jobs abroad, what is your point?

For loss of medical it's 48 months basic salary.

There are other group programs that many of the pilots are in that have different provisions. One is called LIPS:

Loss of Income Protection for Emirates Pilots


TP

I believed those monies paid during the time of ones disability will be deducted from that 48months of LTD benefit. For example, if one is out of flying for lets say 7 months, then should one lose his medical in the future, he/she will be paid for 35 months as a LOL.

Depends on the contract and agency, we have had several pilots gone on medical leave for extended periods and they remained employed and were paid during the time. Also their response to family emergencies has been very good in my opinion, we had a couple of pilots who their spouse pass away, they also remained employed and were paid for several months until they could get their family affairs in order. But of course, you don't get those benefits everywhere

I heard Emirates can be a good deal. I think if I was younger and had school age kids it would be my first choice.

I think Emirates and Etihad are more "new legacy" carriers, or at least they are trying to be.

For contract jobs you can pay extra for loss of license, but it isn't very good. Several hundred dollars a month, and the benefits are fairly low.

Contract job medical insurance can be quite a bit better. Bhupa Gold and a couple of the other deals are better than the insurance I have back at my US legacy carrier. Some jobs they are free, some you pay a little bit. My last job I think it was 75 USD a month extra, including being med-evaced out. (not to the US)

The insurance for the job I am going back to is 200 a month, with a 2000 annual deductable, and 20% co-pay after the deductable.

I had just finished a contract when I broke my leg. I had no insurance. My total bill, that I paid myself, was less than I would have had to pay in the US, with insurance.

A mistake. Some contract jobs include Loss of License for free. Just not the two I just did.

The only thing I would do differently is try to get my expat job sooner than I did. Working in Asia isn't for everybody, but if it is for you, you can't really beat it. Anything that you could possibly want to do is no more than a short flight away. You like skiing? I've yet to find better snow than in Japan. Maybe you're a water sports enthusiast? The number of fabulous places to go to the beach, go sailing, diving, surfing, kiteboarding..etc is far too numerous to even begin to list. Maybe you like climbing/trekking? Well we have these little hills called the Himalayas nearby. Perhaps you're a city person? You like some good shopping or nightlife? Bangkok, Hong Kong, Tokyo...they make American bars look like playtime at kindergarten and the shopping options are unmatched. History and culture your thing? We're smack in the middle of most of the oldest civilizations in the world. Just about anything that you can do back home, you can do 10x more, bigger, better, or harder in Asia, and usually at a fraction of the cost.

The only thing that Asia doesn't have is...your family! So if THE most important thing in your life is living near your parents/in-laws/siblings...etc, then an expat job isn't for you. If you're happy to go visit them once a year and spend the rest of your free time doing the things I listed above, then come on over. Also if you're a person who likes things a certain way (ie the American way) then Asia probably isn't for you either. I have worked with people who love being here and people who hate it. Without fail the people who hate it fall into one of the 2 categories I just mentioned. Either they hate being away from their relatives so they spend all their free time back home and don't get to experience what Asia has to offer, or they can't adapt to the different cultures.

Controlled Rest.

Here, here. I couldn't agree more.

Flying in Euland with a 5/5 roster eas a four year vacation, outdoor activities, culture, food, and lots of new friends. The best part, with the exception of the Canarys, I was never ,ore than 2 1/2 hours from any destination.

Also, DAL had a $225 ticket to the US with half the travel time. I would have enjoyed finishing my last years of flying there.

I'm with a good carrier further east with business class travel back home. Not as many days off between patterns though.

All in all the best choicenI made 22 years ago, with what happened to the carriers on the US.

As has been previously stated in other threads ,take a 2 week trip to the country where you would like to work in order to get some kind of feel for the culture and then make a well thought out decision from that point.

http://imageshack.us/a/img708/2789/birdfluflight.gif

Great thread with some well thought out responses. I don't fly as an expat but do fly into Asia and Europe, beside the good ole US of A. I think giving advise to anyone considerably younger, let alone family (and close family at that!) is always going to be fraught with challenges/dilemmas. First off, hind sight is great, its easy to second guess your decisions when you can see the consequences after the fact. As some have alluded, sometimes life take you where you go rather than you controlling events.
Its tough when your young and passionate about something (flying, girls, motorcycles, making money, in this context, all the same ;)) There are more things to life than flying, just try seeing that when you "love" to fly.
Living in America. I like to travel, I like seeing the world. Had things turned out differently, I think I'd have made a great (happy) expat pilot. That said, I've lived close to my parents most of my career. My kids know (knew) their grand parents. Had I lived overseas they would never have known my parents the way they do. Is that important. Only you can decide that.
As far as the flying is concerned. Flying outside the USA is different, not bad different but different. Not like it would have been 25 or more years ago. Than it would have been much more of an adventure, maybe even with a greater element of risk. I can't speak for working for any of the Asian, Middle east, or European airlines, but I suspect, reading on APC, that while there are some striking differences, the similarities are becoming great every year. The one thing I think (and it is strictly IMHO) is that the pilot/flight attendant interface may be considerably better (overseas) to the young, (un)attached male who's interest transcends the cockpit.
Life is more than just flying. A sucky airline at home, for some, is better than any flying anywhere else. Don't let your passion to flying drive all your decisions. Family, friends, your non aviation interests need to be taken into account. If you go overseas and see it as indentured servitude, than you are making a big mistake. Continue to network at home, downsize your dreams or plot a different course. At the end of the day, it still a job. ( a really good one if your lucky :))

Now, let say you were a former military guy so your son/daughter has lived in various culture very immersed and loves it.
What type of thing would you tell them to do early in there career, to get overseas flying as early in the career as possible. Remember that they are fresh graduates, with only a c.f.i. and 400 hours.

Well to really be marketable and in demand you need to be an experienced jet captain. So the quickest route to getting jet PIC time would be a good start (something bigger than a CRJ/ERJ).

There are FO opportunities here though. Some of the low cost operators hire foreign FOs: Jetstar Asia and Tiger in Singapore come to mind. I think they still require 500 hours of jet time though. Those would probably be the jobs you could get with the least amount of experience (with the exception of the buy a job gigs in Indonesia). Working for the low costs you won't be living the "Asian dream" so to speak. You're not making as much money and don't get a whole lot of time off to travel. As a stepping stone it can be good though as most of them have reasonably quick upgrades.

As for contract jobs, the only one I can think of that upgrades FOs to Captains is Air Japan. They require more experience than the Low costs and a P1 jet rating but if you can get in, it's a much better job IMHO. The Dominican can probably provide much more detail about Air Japan.

Then of course there are the middle east airlines: Emirates, Etihad and Qatar being the "big" ones. Kind of on the outskirts of Asia, but still technically on the continent. Qatar is probably the easiest to get on with as they don't require jet time I believe. Heavy turboprop command time is sufficient (Dash 8, ATR...etc). Emirates requires 2000 hours of jet time and Etihad requires a type rating on one of their aircraft I think. There's also FlyDubai. I don't know anything about them but there's a thread just above/below this one about them.

Flying a lot to get hours does not give you job security. Ask the Singapore expats who did not have their contracts renewed(some after 20+ years). Bottom line, you are a hired gun, a mercenary, and for whatever reason, when they no longer need you, you are toast.

Yes, there are the stories of bankrupt airlines, terminated pension plans, etc. in the US. But, there is a seniority system, and if you are first in line when the hiring cycle starts, life can be very good!

Having spent 26 years with a US major, and 10 as an expat, there is no doubt in my mind, go with the US major.

Jalways is another example.....! You are of course 100% correct, I and others have written about the pros and cons extensively of the seniority vs. contract systems and conditions. But there is one thing this career has as a common denominator and it is that all is subject to timing, the industry is cyclical by nature and it really depends when you join, I have colleagues that have been furloughed twice already from the same airline and very bitter about the whole deal, I have been hired a couple of times by that very secure job that was meant to last my entire career, it didn't turn out to be that way. Funny how I was having this exact conversation with an Air Canada pilot that was at Jalways and got sacked, we were talking about the rumors of JAL wanting to hire foreign pilots again, he was adamant about going back if they do. My point is that as I posted earlier in this thread, this is a matter that doesn't have a simple "definitely this over the other answer" one of my friends resigned his seniority at a major and decided to remain working contract, to an outsider it would seem ludicrous but to him that has moved with his wife to an exotic local on a beachfront property with a maid helping the wife with the home shores and at his stage in life (kids grown and independent) he is happy, as incomprehensible this may seem to some. I was having this same conversation with a FedEx pilot a few months back, he was almost annoyed when I told him that I didn't have my app anywhere due to the long overdue hiring cycle, he started to mention all the advantages of the seniority system and the ALPA secured jobs yadda, yadda! As if I needed a lesson:rolleyes: after he pretty much did a background check and looked for skeletons that would restore back the space, time continuum but couldn't find a reason that would make sense to him as to why I would choose such horrible and insecure work conditions, he asked Why then? "I'm happy" I know it is hard to swallow but it is not you it has to make sense to, sorry but this doesn't have a one size fits all answer.

Over the last 40 years I don't think there is any one choice that would have worked for everyone, and aviation is still changing rapidly. You make your choices and take your chances.

Some pilots got hired at a flag carrier and retired happily 35 years later. A lot of others, not so much.

I have seen my friends around me make some great choices (furloughed at a major, now 10 year Jetblue Captains), and others make not such good choices (leave Fedex 15 years ago for a major, now furloughed). A lot of it was just luck.

15 years ago Fedex and UPS were mostly domestic night flyers hauling rubber #$%$$ in and out of their hubs. Now 60 pct of their pilots fly great international schedules, with huge amounts of time off, with some of the highest payscales in the world. Who knew? Lots of flag carriers around the world are just now getting creamed by competition from low cost carriers and now the likes of Emirates and Etihad. I am still trying to figure out where Emirates is planning on flying 90 380's every day.

Almost all of the expats that I flew with, that were taking a "break" from their real job, had a great time. But we had that safety net of a job to go back to. I flew two different contract jobs and had the best time I ever had as an airline pilot.

I will go back to contract flying at my first opportunity.

Some good points by everybody. It's all a risk reward scenario. Staying in the US and working for a major is considered the safe option (the last decade would challenge that assumption though). The expat life is more risky but the reward can be greater. More money and lower taxes mean I have netted more money in my ~10 years overseas than I would have in probably 25 years back home. The risk? I can be sent home at any time with a small payout (or no payout if the contract is up). Or if I get seriously ill or injured I get a one off payout and am unemployed (private insurance can alleviate that risk somewhat). Good financial planning with that extra money can alleviate the risks too. Yes I could be unemployed at any time but if that happens I can probably afford to live for a couple of years before I'd even have to think about adjusting my lifestyle. Another 10 years doing what I'm doing now without any big changes from the last 10 years and I can probably afford to retire very comfortably if I want. I'll be much younger than 65 at that time.

Many (most?) of us expats only left home because the industry at home went to hell. I had never even thought about it before. But now than I'm here, I wouldn't go back. It's definitely not for everybody though.

But really, it depends on family and scheduling, IMHO. Can and will your family adjust? Or do they even want to try and live an expat job? Mamma ain't gonna have her momma to lean on. So you leave your family at home....does your carrier offer a commuting roster/schedule? Some do, some don't. Are the bosses and the guys/gals you fly with of a like culture, or are you basically solo in your BIG jet? And do you have recall rights at one of the majors or the ability to go back to one's carrier because of no seniority issues? What would be one's exit plan?

But the really big question is, are or is there alternatives at home? If so, stay, I would say. And what's your age and marital status? If you have a few years to YOUR retirement, not so big of a deal, but if you have 20 more years....ask yourself where you would like to be at that time frame. Can you do 20 years away from one's extended family, leave the culture you grew up in, difficulty with languages etc. and managements that ususally don't see you as a loyal employee, but rather one who might just leave when a better deal comes along.

It's not whether or not I would do it again, but rather could you, given the questions you MUST ask yourself, before deciding to cross the big divide. Many times you might think you have the answers, but things change, all the time. When I first got to my current job, for the first two, almost three years, pilots could manage to get a minimum of 10-14 days off in a row every month. Of course that's when we were flying 65-70 hours a month. Today? Not allowed to have more than 15 days off a month with no more than five in a row (vacation the exception) and many flying a HARD 90=95 hours. And some, over 100 hours considering that time not at a control seat does not count when you are the relief crew.

Just mentioning some of the differences.