Originally Posted by murkdaddy (Post 1762259)

Cathay is not the airline it use to be as far as a "career" airline for US pilots. Do a google search and you will find a ton of information on their new SO program. You will be Hong Kong based without a housing allowance which makes life miserable since rent is so high.

Murkdaddy

Originally Posted by 4runner (Post 1769018)

I posted this on another professional pilot website, but I fly with a really good chap who has South African and UK citizenship. Did a stint with Cathay.

I asked him "So, how was Cathay"

He replies "Errrrrrrrr(pause), if I were in Flt Ops and conducted interviews, my only two questions would be 1. Are you from Oz
2. Are you from NZ

Originally Posted by marcal (Post 1769116)

Hard pressed? If you hear a CX jet in North America I'd say there is a 90% chance if not greater there are "yanks" on board. Approx 250 Americans at CX the majority of whom are us based.

Originally Posted by Beaver Hunter (Post 1769274)

Lots of promises and little delivery.

Originally Posted by marcal (Post 1769843)

CX is nowhere near as bad as PPRUNE would make it seem, however there are many things that make it substantially different from a US carrier. I spent 7 years there and recently left for a US legacy. Not many do that b/c ultimately it is a place that you can stay for a career but there are many, many other options out there.

CX seemed to be a phenomenal place to go when US legacies were not hiring or furloughing, but when the US is hiring, there really is nowhere better in the world.

I didn't see a future for my family in HKG and my family lives in the most junior base of my new carrier, so the timing worked out.

I would have stayed at CX indefinitely had I not gotten on at my present carrier.

Originally Posted by Papoo (Post 1770463)

A little from the horses mouth, having been there for 4 years... And I apologise to th chap that PM'd me for details, I've only just seen it. Hopefully this answers the questions you asked...

As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.

Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.

Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.

Now, the biggie; pay.

If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.

It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.

As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.

As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.

I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.

As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).

Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.

Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).

After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.

FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.

As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.

So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.

It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.

In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.

If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.

In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.

As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.

The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.

As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....

If you're interested in the other stuff;

Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.

On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.

As for basings...

There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.

Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.

Would I recommend it?

I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.

If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.

Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.

Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.

I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.

Originally Posted by outaluckagain (Post 1770483)

OK, I see the HK pilot allownace did not go up..stil at 10K.
Age limit to join? I am 45 and getting ready to go to apply at the regionals. Got the 4 year degree and good work history.

I am thinking CX would probably take me, but not sure because of my age being so high.

Either way, like in said in my previous post, I will not go for that cadet program. Just no reason to start in Adelaide flying GA aircraft all over again.

Originally Posted by bedrock (Post 1770497)

How much to rent a 3-4 bedroom island house in Tung Chung or Mui Wo?

US citizens who fly into the US may face taxation. I think you have to be out of the country 330 days a yr to avoid US taxes, and then you are still taxed above about 90K.

Originally Posted by Sike (Post 1780786)

As a CX Yank, I'd say you'd have to be nuts to join at this point. Six to ten years ago, when no one else was hiring, it was a pretty good deal. If you look at current wages on comparable aircraft at the U.S. legacy carriers, we're about 15% underpaid. Not to mention that on a base, it's probably the least satisfying aviation job there is, if you actually enjoy flying. The time off and "golden handcuffs" are about all that keep me here now.

On the flip side, if you're under 24 years old and have little to no flying experience, it might be an option. If you want a "free" education and have an interest in seeing the world at a young age, I think it could be fun. You could always return home after six years with widebody international experience. Although I'm not really sure how many U.S. legacies are hiring without the coveted 1000 PIC turbojet. In other countries, (read UK and AUS) I don't think that's so much of an issue.

Originally Posted by outaluckagain (Post 1782027)

What is being said is still far superior to what I may expect to earn in the US. First 3 years at a regional, then finally a start at a major US airline.

The biggest short coming at CX is obviously the social and family aspect. Really not a good idea to start a family living in HK.

I have checked things out and weighed one against the other. The money will be better at CX since the oppertunity to make real pay will come sooner than it would at a US regional. Not saying CX pays better than a US major....Just that it will take at least 3 years before I may expect to get hired at a US major.

All all in all, I will stick to the US regional to US major route, because of the downside of living in HK and the not mentioned health issues of HK air polution. The WHO recently stated that air polution causes cancer....which we allready knew.

I don't agree that CX is only for younger guys....but I can see your point that it may be rather time consuming. Years before upgrade is achieved means less time left to get back to the US to start again at a US major.

Originally Posted by FLowpayFO (Post 1852861)

I filled out the paperwork and sent it in almost a month ago, still no word. Do they take a while to get back to you to set up an interview? Will there be assessments here in the states or Canada? Or will you directly go to Hong Kong?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Boss Hoggin (Post 1852762)

I have been trying to get hired with CX for over 6 years now. Part 121 PIC experience (regionals). No accidents or incidents on record. Bachelors degree but still no offer. Are their hiring or do I have to pay for a wide body type rating? Is there something I am simply over looking? I for got to mention I have over 5000 hours for flight time.