Working as a Pilot in China
12-21-2016, 02:14 PM
#241
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted by The Dominican
There are many jobs now accepting older pilots..., the notion that because you are in your mid 50's you have no options is nonsense!
12-24-2016, 07:55 AM
#242
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by The Dominican
Guys there are horror stories at every gig, also to group all companies as a single parameter as in "working in China" is just as ridiculous as saying that working in Delta and Kallita is one of the same....!
A lot of these stories are true...., but you get bad experiences in the US or Europe too...., a friend went trough hell at one of the majors in the US..., fired unceremoniously and had to spend half of his retirement and years in court to get his job back just for them to start messing with him again lately..., just because one particular manager doesn't like him...!
The same way there are people that have a tough time in China...., there are others (the majority actually) that are happier than a pig in...., Well, you know how the say goes!
A lot of these stories are true...., but you get bad experiences in the US or Europe too...., a friend went trough hell at one of the majors in the US..., fired unceremoniously and had to spend half of his retirement and years in court to get his job back just for them to start messing with him again lately..., just because one particular manager doesn't like him...!
The same way there are people that have a tough time in China...., there are others (the majority actually) that are happier than a pig in...., Well, you know how the say goes!
12-27-2016, 04:40 AM
#243
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 747 captain
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by sailingfun
What Major was this? The union normally provides legal representation and firings are normally handled under the NMB and system boards.
Keep patching the inflatable rat boyz........!
01-14-2017, 05:49 AM
#244
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Fo...md80
Posts: 112
my experience working in Asia (CX) for about a year is eerily similar to many posts , both here and other chat boards . These folks don't seem to differentiate between have to know, and nice to know. I can't tell you how much trivial info these guys wanted me to know. They hire experienced DEFO's, then treat you like a child, like this was my 1st flying gig. I guess I'm just not smart enough to know everything about everything all the time. I do know what's important , and when... it comes with 25 years of doing this. The little things I'll look up when it's warranted. I could only take a year of this ridiculous game. It's no wonder china /Asian carriers are finding it hard to find /keep good guys/girls. I wouldn't go back there for all the money in China 😛.
Joe
Joe
02-02-2017, 06:11 AM
#245
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 64
Flying Upside Down
Originally Posted by CloudSpirit
Beware flying in China.
There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.
In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.
Flying Upside Down:There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.
Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.
干杯!
(Gānbēi)
There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.
In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.
Flying Upside Down:There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.
Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.
干杯!
(Gānbēi)
--------------------
Dude, I f-ing loved it!!!!
To the O.P., I can't stop laughing/crying at some, make that all, of the crap that the author went through over there. QAR TIME!
I actually was considering going over there.
I know a couple of guys, who were flying Mesa's go! operation in Hawaii that went over. Now I've heard through the grapevine that they all left China
Hereby Notified!
Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. Couple that With some dip**** in the right seat named Wu, who doesn't know who or what the fk he's doing...
I can't believe that there's not more $hizz going down (literally) over there.
Perhaps the SFO deal --- Sum Ting Wong, Wee Too Loo, shed some light on the situation.
Hereby Notice!
-------------------
02-02-2017, 06:26 AM
#246
Layover Master
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Seated
Posts: 4,310
Originally Posted by Bikingscott
--------------------
Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. It really isn't that difficult. At all.
I can't believe that there's not more $hizz going down (literally) over there.
Perhaps the SFO deal --- Sum Ting Wong, Wee Too Loo, shed some light on the situation.
That's Korea, not China. There's a difference.
-------------------
Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. It really isn't that difficult. At all.
I can't believe that there's not more $hizz going down (literally) over there.
Perhaps the SFO deal --- Sum Ting Wong, Wee Too Loo, shed some light on the situation.
That's Korea, not China. There's a difference.
-------------------
02-02-2017, 11:36 PM
#247
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 747 captain
Posts: 1,549
Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. Couple that With some dip**** in the right seat named Wu, who doesn't know who or what the fk he's doing...
Really?????
I've flown with plenty of guys named Mike that don't know jack either pal
Something as simple as a different transition level and altitude (that is not 180) is enough to send some of those named Chat, John, Charlie into panic mode.....! LOL!
And let's not mention standard ICAO phraseology ok......!
02-25-2017, 12:33 PM
#249
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 2
Anyone working for SF Airlines
I need some feedback from someone currently working as a pilot in China for SF Airlines or any Airline and that is originally from another Country. I have a brother and a friend that are trying to move there.
03-20-2017, 12:45 AM
#250
New Hire
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3
Hi guys, sharing my insight.
China is a big country: different region, different airline, different conditions.
I read that book ("Flying upside down"), not saying that it's spreading false information.. But it's SPECIFIC information (Tianjin - Beijing area, very polluted) and it's talking about a SPECIFIC airline (how many airlines are there in the US? A book about Southwest would differ a lot from one written about a regional.. would it?)
And how about living in South Dakota, compared to living in California? Different.. Right? There would be things in common of course, but it wouldn't be the same experience.
Also: this is a country that is growing at 7% a year. This means that every 7 years it grows +50%.
Be very aware of this. Things which were valid some years ago might be changed (for better or for worse, but changed)
Also, some references in that book are outdated or specific to that airline only.
For example: here the paycheck is wired to a Bank of China local account in USD, so there are NO restrictions to send it abroad, because the money is not in local currency.
Or: the company manuals of Tianjin were poorly translated from Chinese, and also the foreign pilot's contract was a bad copy of the Chinese one.
Here: none of that is true.
So, here is my post that I originally posted on PPrune.. And I am posting it here now. Because I think that everyone should be entitled to make an informed decision about moving or not moving abroad.
Otherwise by reading that book alone (which was genuinely written to help other colleagues, but was also a way for the authors to release some of the anger they accumulated during the time spent abroad) might lead some of you off track!
Be aware: I am not saying that here you will find yourself in heaven.
There WILL be challenges, both in the day to day life (speaking to people it's difficult. Not being understood and having to use a real time translator on your phone it's indeed stressing) and in the daily flying (Meters to feet conversion for example).
What I am saying is that it's doable and it will be financially rewarding.
If and only IF you are prepared to go outside of your comfort zone.
With a resident contract it's $1 M every 3 years.
So you have a business idea? Or you want to retire? Here is a way to fund it, that's all.
Plus it's an experience. One of the reasons why I wanted to be a pilot was to explore the world.. And guess what? There are 190+ countries each one worth visiting, each one different from the others in some way!
So here it goes:
************************************************** ****
Decided to write a long post..
This is because I came on pprune around a year and a half ago and that's where I found out about Xiamen.
But except the link to the Terms and Conditions there wasn't much info here so I just went and everything worked out great..
Now it's my time to pay back sharing some info!
About the city:
The original post on pprune had many photos, but here I am limited to max 3.. So full photo album link here: https://imageshack.com/a/agAl/1
Pollution --> Look at the sky color in the pics.
Compared with the rest of Chinese cities it is very clean, not many factories in town.
(of course don't expect the same quality of air of EU/US, but compared to Beijing it's heaven.)
Ranked 2nd city for quality of life in China (look at wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiamen)
There are bike paths everywhere, very clean. Parks, you can take long walks... etc.
Expats: you can find them only in a couple of neighborhoods, it's not an international city like Shanghai or Beijing.
Cost of life:
Taxi -> 30min ride approx 5 USD
Mc Donald's meal approx 4 USD
Places to stay:
A) Straits international community (single bedroom around 800 usd/month, double bedroom 900 usd month)
Near the beach, lots of western restaurants (but price for a dinner would be around 15-20 usd), nice area, lots of expats
Pics:
This is the view from an apt at 15th floor:
B) Marco polo (single bedroom around 600 usd/month, double bedroom 700 usd month)
Lots of expats, near the lake (which is not really a lake anyway), lots of western shops, more things to do compared to Straits
C) Near Tesco mall (single bedroom around 400 usd/month, double bedroom 550 usd month)
Newly built area, no expats, 5 mins from the airport, lots of western shops (mc donalds, starbucks, kfc, tesco, decathlon, everything basically)
International schools:
there are 2 of them, there is a queue to get your kids in.. So you have to sign up early.
But not much info on that (don't have any kids)
About the company:
I haven't been here long yet, but treatment from the start has been always very good.
They value pilots, always available to solve problems.
Spoke with many expats and they are very happy with the working conditions. (around 60 expats here at the moment, about 10 from Usa/Canada, 15 Europe, 15 South America, the rest other countries)
Never saw that kind of attitude/enthusiasm at my last airline.
Pay:
Payscales are advertised everywhere, it's the most paying job on the 737 right now.
But there are a couple of things extra which are not advertised for some reason:
1) Profit share, about 10k USD/year
2) Overnight allowance (depends on contract, from 500 to 1500 usd depending if you commute or not)
3) Resident contract (which is what I am doing): overtime is counted monthly, so if you fly more than 75 hrs a month you earn 300 usd/hr.
Average is around 100 hrs/year of overtime (30k USD more)
The payscales that you read from the agencies are all net..
So for a resident contract you are looking at 30k USD/month net.
Flights:
Mainly domestic but also some International destinations (Thailand, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia)
Hotels -> 5 stars everywhere, really good.
This is the hotel where you do all the groundschool in Xiamen (and also the assessment when you come over)
** pic removed, forum max pics per post = 3.. So look at the album.
787 upgrade -> not advertised, nor offered at the moment.. but rumors that it will be in the future
Tickets:
5 free per year + 5 ID75.
This for you + wife + kids + parents.
Each of them gets 5+5 tickets
Other things to consider:
Roster 4 days ON, 2 days OFF.
Usually overnights are quite common, so expect to start on day 1 in Xiamen, then sleep 3 nights away.
Sometimes less.
Usually you will operate from a nearby airport (Fuzhou) which is a big base for them. (Hotel is really nice there)
Duty times: the really long slots that affected the operations until last year (1 hour each single and every domestic flight) are mostly gone (except Beijing and Shanghai which are overloaded).
However: it's not a walk in the park. Usually the flying days are long.
Also it takes some time to adapt, especially the first 2 weeks you will need to figure out how to use a VPN, their Uber-like taxi service app, the app to get food delivered to your door, the sim card, etc.. etc..
Anyway, for me it was a no brainer.
I was working a lot already at home.. Here I get paid the big bucks to do it!
Families: many capts choose to bring their wife here, if you are not married it's still doable but she will need to get a visa everytime.. So more complicated!
Ps: recruitment takes some time. Usually to get a response and to organize an assessment it's around 3 months.
I made some useful contacts here, so if interested in speeding up things or for first hand info on the assessment PM me!
Any additional info: kidnapper01 (at) gmail.com
China is a big country: different region, different airline, different conditions.
I read that book ("Flying upside down"), not saying that it's spreading false information.. But it's SPECIFIC information (Tianjin - Beijing area, very polluted) and it's talking about a SPECIFIC airline (how many airlines are there in the US? A book about Southwest would differ a lot from one written about a regional.. would it?)
And how about living in South Dakota, compared to living in California? Different.. Right? There would be things in common of course, but it wouldn't be the same experience.
Also: this is a country that is growing at 7% a year. This means that every 7 years it grows +50%.
Be very aware of this. Things which were valid some years ago might be changed (for better or for worse, but changed)
Also, some references in that book are outdated or specific to that airline only.
For example: here the paycheck is wired to a Bank of China local account in USD, so there are NO restrictions to send it abroad, because the money is not in local currency.
Or: the company manuals of Tianjin were poorly translated from Chinese, and also the foreign pilot's contract was a bad copy of the Chinese one.
Here: none of that is true.
So, here is my post that I originally posted on PPrune.. And I am posting it here now. Because I think that everyone should be entitled to make an informed decision about moving or not moving abroad.
Otherwise by reading that book alone (which was genuinely written to help other colleagues, but was also a way for the authors to release some of the anger they accumulated during the time spent abroad) might lead some of you off track!
Be aware: I am not saying that here you will find yourself in heaven.
There WILL be challenges, both in the day to day life (speaking to people it's difficult. Not being understood and having to use a real time translator on your phone it's indeed stressing) and in the daily flying (Meters to feet conversion for example).
What I am saying is that it's doable and it will be financially rewarding.
If and only IF you are prepared to go outside of your comfort zone.
With a resident contract it's $1 M every 3 years.
So you have a business idea? Or you want to retire? Here is a way to fund it, that's all.
Plus it's an experience. One of the reasons why I wanted to be a pilot was to explore the world.. And guess what? There are 190+ countries each one worth visiting, each one different from the others in some way!
So here it goes:
************************************************** ****
Decided to write a long post..
This is because I came on pprune around a year and a half ago and that's where I found out about Xiamen.
But except the link to the Terms and Conditions there wasn't much info here so I just went and everything worked out great..
Now it's my time to pay back sharing some info!
About the city:
The original post on pprune had many photos, but here I am limited to max 3.. So full photo album link here: https://imageshack.com/a/agAl/1
Pollution --> Look at the sky color in the pics.
Compared with the rest of Chinese cities it is very clean, not many factories in town.
(of course don't expect the same quality of air of EU/US, but compared to Beijing it's heaven.)
Ranked 2nd city for quality of life in China (look at wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiamen)
There are bike paths everywhere, very clean. Parks, you can take long walks... etc.
Expats: you can find them only in a couple of neighborhoods, it's not an international city like Shanghai or Beijing.
Cost of life:
Taxi -> 30min ride approx 5 USD
Mc Donald's meal approx 4 USD
Places to stay:
A) Straits international community (single bedroom around 800 usd/month, double bedroom 900 usd month)
Near the beach, lots of western restaurants (but price for a dinner would be around 15-20 usd), nice area, lots of expats
Pics:
This is the view from an apt at 15th floor:
B) Marco polo (single bedroom around 600 usd/month, double bedroom 700 usd month)
Lots of expats, near the lake (which is not really a lake anyway), lots of western shops, more things to do compared to Straits
C) Near Tesco mall (single bedroom around 400 usd/month, double bedroom 550 usd month)
Newly built area, no expats, 5 mins from the airport, lots of western shops (mc donalds, starbucks, kfc, tesco, decathlon, everything basically)
International schools:
there are 2 of them, there is a queue to get your kids in.. So you have to sign up early.
But not much info on that (don't have any kids)
About the company:
I haven't been here long yet, but treatment from the start has been always very good.
They value pilots, always available to solve problems.
Spoke with many expats and they are very happy with the working conditions. (around 60 expats here at the moment, about 10 from Usa/Canada, 15 Europe, 15 South America, the rest other countries)
Never saw that kind of attitude/enthusiasm at my last airline.
Pay:
Payscales are advertised everywhere, it's the most paying job on the 737 right now.
But there are a couple of things extra which are not advertised for some reason:
1) Profit share, about 10k USD/year
2) Overnight allowance (depends on contract, from 500 to 1500 usd depending if you commute or not)
3) Resident contract (which is what I am doing): overtime is counted monthly, so if you fly more than 75 hrs a month you earn 300 usd/hr.
Average is around 100 hrs/year of overtime (30k USD more)
The payscales that you read from the agencies are all net..
So for a resident contract you are looking at 30k USD/month net.
Flights:
Mainly domestic but also some International destinations (Thailand, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia)
Hotels -> 5 stars everywhere, really good.
This is the hotel where you do all the groundschool in Xiamen (and also the assessment when you come over)
** pic removed, forum max pics per post = 3.. So look at the album.
787 upgrade -> not advertised, nor offered at the moment.. but rumors that it will be in the future
Tickets:
5 free per year + 5 ID75.
This for you + wife + kids + parents.
Each of them gets 5+5 tickets
Other things to consider:
Roster 4 days ON, 2 days OFF.
Usually overnights are quite common, so expect to start on day 1 in Xiamen, then sleep 3 nights away.
Sometimes less.
Usually you will operate from a nearby airport (Fuzhou) which is a big base for them. (Hotel is really nice there)
Duty times: the really long slots that affected the operations until last year (1 hour each single and every domestic flight) are mostly gone (except Beijing and Shanghai which are overloaded).
However: it's not a walk in the park. Usually the flying days are long.
Also it takes some time to adapt, especially the first 2 weeks you will need to figure out how to use a VPN, their Uber-like taxi service app, the app to get food delivered to your door, the sim card, etc.. etc..
Anyway, for me it was a no brainer.
I was working a lot already at home.. Here I get paid the big bucks to do it!
Families: many capts choose to bring their wife here, if you are not married it's still doable but she will need to get a visa everytime.. So more complicated!
Ps: recruitment takes some time. Usually to get a response and to organize an assessment it's around 3 months.
I made some useful contacts here, so if interested in speeding up things or for first hand info on the assessment PM me!
Any additional info: kidnapper01 (at) gmail.com
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