ExPat opportunities for guys with families?
06-06-2016, 01:35 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 116
Lots of variables here. Does/will your wife work or will you be the sole source of income? What languages do you speak? Are you dead set on the airlines? Has your wife lived abroad/have international experience? I ask that because even if you speak a local language but your wife does not, it can be a rough adjustment for her and the kids.
But if both of you are all in and you find a gig that you like/supports the family then it can be pretty awesome. I know there are some King Air jobs here and there, Dynamic Aviation was looking for Central America, N register planes I believe(but don't quote me). There are some jet management companies that operate good equipment out of Africa (Avjet). I'd check their websites to get an idea and see if they have competitors hiring as well. Also, there are Part 91 aircraft out there flying for U.S. based companies with interests overseas, search the internet for those as well. Those might be tough to crack but if you're willing to relocate abroad then that might be a leg up. It can open a window into a part of aviation you never new existed.
But if both of you are all in and you find a gig that you like/supports the family then it can be pretty awesome. I know there are some King Air jobs here and there, Dynamic Aviation was looking for Central America, N register planes I believe(but don't quote me). There are some jet management companies that operate good equipment out of Africa (Avjet). I'd check their websites to get an idea and see if they have competitors hiring as well. Also, there are Part 91 aircraft out there flying for U.S. based companies with interests overseas, search the internet for those as well. Those might be tough to crack but if you're willing to relocate abroad then that might be a leg up. It can open a window into a part of aviation you never new existed.
06-06-2016, 04:00 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Position: ERJ
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by esa17
Go for a seasonal gig in Alaska and transition to full time. You'll make more than any regional.
06-07-2016, 03:35 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
You'd be crazy to go to any of those ME airlines. From another post, here are the realities of working there. Stick it out in here in the USA and build your time for a legacy:
EK Pay housing or provides it, if you are single and just need a small flat then the allowance will cover that maybe with some left over. If you have a wife and a few kids the allowance will not cover what the typical american considers suitable. If you take the company housing then you are at EKs whim. Such as the case now where guys are being kicked out of their nice villas to be stuffed into much smaller town homes.
The transport to work is for EKs benefit not yours. They control the pickup time to ensure you arrive at the airport in time to review the flight plan and conduct the mandatory crew brief, all of which occurs in the 45 minutes before you are legally on duty according to EK. Duty starts 60 min prior to departure which is when you are required to be on the airplane. Consider that when you are scheduled to conduct a turn around flight beginning with a 2 person crew at 2am with a 13 hour duty day and the flight times are longer than the scheduled block time because the "seasonal average" says its legal.
92 hours at a regional is nothing compared to 92 hours at EK. 4-6 sectors in familiar airspace with predictable english speaking ATC conducted at (in most cases) a normal time of day is considerably easier than dealing with multiple accent ATC, with a myriad of different procedures, metric, CPDLC, in flight broadcast, escape maneuvers and drift down profiles, ETOPS planning... and then trying to get peak levels of alertness when landing at 6am after 9 hours in a noisy tube. Then you get to do it all again after 24-48hours offs. Also don't fall asleep in the car home because the guy driving you in on his 12th hour of the 6th day of his 6 12 hour shifts and he may be drifting off too.
Per diem rates have been dropping at EK, somehow the amount crews got in 2012 is more than the amount they are getting in 2015. The do this by negotiating a discount and then adjusting per diem based on that discount. So if you can go to the hotel restaurant and get a plain burger with fries for $2, then thats your per diem for the meal. In some cases they have negotiated free breakfast, which means you don't receive per diem for that meal at all. Never mind that you just flew 6+ hours and it's 8 in the morning at the destination, either you eat the free breakfast or you forfeit that per diem.
Block days off? good luck! Most schedules at EK don't have more than 2 days in a row off. The bid system restricts you to no more than 5 in a row. The bid system also restricts you to no more than 15 days off in a month. You won't get what you bid for anyway since you are only allowed 5 preferences.
Leave- yes they say 42 days, however most pilots are getting less than 30 and a lot of that is forced leave. EK will assign leave in a 4 day block and since leave doesn't have any credit you will still fly 90+ hours in a month with 4 days of leave. Again NO CREDIT FOR LEAVE! EK has managed to cram 85 hours of flying into peoples rosters who have 10 days of leave. No days off before or after leave EK recently sent out a letter telling pilots not to waste 1 of their 5 preferences on this since it just won't happen.
speaking of credit; No credit for ground school, simulators, or anything else EK decides to put on your roster.
Sick calls. You are allowed to self certify sick for 2 days any more requires a visit to the EK run clinic. If the trip you call sick for is 3 days then you will have 2 sick and the last day will be converted to reserve. If the trip was an Ultra Long Range requiring 2 rest days before the trip then 2 of your off days later in the month will be converted to reserve, because the only reason those days were off was for the ULR. Too many sick calls may get you a call from the chief pilot regarding your attendance.
Fatigue calls. Be prepared to submit to sleep apnea testing or possible alcohol saturation testing. Since the reason for fatigue couldn't possibly be the rosters, it must be you failing to manage your rest.
School fees are for 3 kids Maximum. Anymore and you are on your own. The allowance provided doesn't completely cover the cost of the schools much less the additional fees that get piled on or any extra curricular activities. Also the allowance is considered a yearly allowance, so if you resign in June you may have to pay back part of that allowance even though the school year is out.
You think there is stress associated with commuting you should try the stress of knowing that every flight and every simulator could be the one that gets you sent home. There is no union or labor law of any kind that applies to expats in Dubai.
If you really think life is good at EK you should head on over to PPrune and read a few of those threads."
EK Pay housing or provides it, if you are single and just need a small flat then the allowance will cover that maybe with some left over. If you have a wife and a few kids the allowance will not cover what the typical american considers suitable. If you take the company housing then you are at EKs whim. Such as the case now where guys are being kicked out of their nice villas to be stuffed into much smaller town homes.
The transport to work is for EKs benefit not yours. They control the pickup time to ensure you arrive at the airport in time to review the flight plan and conduct the mandatory crew brief, all of which occurs in the 45 minutes before you are legally on duty according to EK. Duty starts 60 min prior to departure which is when you are required to be on the airplane. Consider that when you are scheduled to conduct a turn around flight beginning with a 2 person crew at 2am with a 13 hour duty day and the flight times are longer than the scheduled block time because the "seasonal average" says its legal.
92 hours at a regional is nothing compared to 92 hours at EK. 4-6 sectors in familiar airspace with predictable english speaking ATC conducted at (in most cases) a normal time of day is considerably easier than dealing with multiple accent ATC, with a myriad of different procedures, metric, CPDLC, in flight broadcast, escape maneuvers and drift down profiles, ETOPS planning... and then trying to get peak levels of alertness when landing at 6am after 9 hours in a noisy tube. Then you get to do it all again after 24-48hours offs. Also don't fall asleep in the car home because the guy driving you in on his 12th hour of the 6th day of his 6 12 hour shifts and he may be drifting off too.
Per diem rates have been dropping at EK, somehow the amount crews got in 2012 is more than the amount they are getting in 2015. The do this by negotiating a discount and then adjusting per diem based on that discount. So if you can go to the hotel restaurant and get a plain burger with fries for $2, then thats your per diem for the meal. In some cases they have negotiated free breakfast, which means you don't receive per diem for that meal at all. Never mind that you just flew 6+ hours and it's 8 in the morning at the destination, either you eat the free breakfast or you forfeit that per diem.
Block days off? good luck! Most schedules at EK don't have more than 2 days in a row off. The bid system restricts you to no more than 5 in a row. The bid system also restricts you to no more than 15 days off in a month. You won't get what you bid for anyway since you are only allowed 5 preferences.
Leave- yes they say 42 days, however most pilots are getting less than 30 and a lot of that is forced leave. EK will assign leave in a 4 day block and since leave doesn't have any credit you will still fly 90+ hours in a month with 4 days of leave. Again NO CREDIT FOR LEAVE! EK has managed to cram 85 hours of flying into peoples rosters who have 10 days of leave. No days off before or after leave EK recently sent out a letter telling pilots not to waste 1 of their 5 preferences on this since it just won't happen.
speaking of credit; No credit for ground school, simulators, or anything else EK decides to put on your roster.
Sick calls. You are allowed to self certify sick for 2 days any more requires a visit to the EK run clinic. If the trip you call sick for is 3 days then you will have 2 sick and the last day will be converted to reserve. If the trip was an Ultra Long Range requiring 2 rest days before the trip then 2 of your off days later in the month will be converted to reserve, because the only reason those days were off was for the ULR. Too many sick calls may get you a call from the chief pilot regarding your attendance.
Fatigue calls. Be prepared to submit to sleep apnea testing or possible alcohol saturation testing. Since the reason for fatigue couldn't possibly be the rosters, it must be you failing to manage your rest.
School fees are for 3 kids Maximum. Anymore and you are on your own. The allowance provided doesn't completely cover the cost of the schools much less the additional fees that get piled on or any extra curricular activities. Also the allowance is considered a yearly allowance, so if you resign in June you may have to pay back part of that allowance even though the school year is out.
You think there is stress associated with commuting you should try the stress of knowing that every flight and every simulator could be the one that gets you sent home. There is no union or labor law of any kind that applies to expats in Dubai.
If you really think life is good at EK you should head on over to PPrune and read a few of those threads."
06-10-2016, 11:02 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: left seat 343/5 332
Posts: 96
I would agree with most of the above comments.
Check on time for duty is changing for the good.
EK provided pick , I think , is a huge plus. Just get in the car and that's it.
Schooling, EK never said it was all covered. Most people do not send their kids to private schools in home country. If they do the total cost is on them.
As far as in flight procedures. Never thought of them as a huge workload ( wow that CPCLC is such a difficult procedure to master) come on!
Personnally 4 -6 sectors higher workload than 6 - 8 hrs 1 sector with all those procedures
Days off around leave ? 1 before 2 after!
But with that being said, I think TP said it . Do what you have to to get to a US legacy . You will never look back even if you have to deal with a layoff at some point.
Check on time for duty is changing for the good.
EK provided pick , I think , is a huge plus. Just get in the car and that's it.
Schooling, EK never said it was all covered. Most people do not send their kids to private schools in home country. If they do the total cost is on them.
As far as in flight procedures. Never thought of them as a huge workload ( wow that CPCLC is such a difficult procedure to master) come on!
Personnally 4 -6 sectors higher workload than 6 - 8 hrs 1 sector with all those procedures
Days off around leave ? 1 before 2 after!
But with that being said, I think TP said it . Do what you have to to get to a US legacy . You will never look back even if you have to deal with a layoff at some point.
06-12-2016, 05:15 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
I've been working on foreign contracts since 1992. Personally, I've chosen contracts that provide time off ranging from 10 days to 1 month off after being on station ranging from 6 to 8. Pay may be less than full time onsite resident positions with carriers such as EK, EH, or QR.
It's a great deal to expect a young wife with young children to uproot and move overseas. Being away from home, family and friends. Then habits that are unacceptable to the locals. Flightcrews get out to the real world where the spouse and children are left behind. Many countries don't allow spouses of crewmembers to obtain work permits. Boredom and the doldrums usually set in resulting in split relationships.
Sure, there's the glamour of living overseas. However, depending on what part of the world you and your family are locating to may soon wear off.
The facts are that one must put food on the table, pay the mortgage and insurance, and save for college. Sure.... Airlines in the U.S. Are hiring. Doesn't guarantee that every applicant will get that dream job. That said, the reason for looking overseas.
A compromise may have to be made to keep the family unit as stable as possible without disrupting the lives of so many.
A friend of mine with young children is on an overseas contract with a 20 day on 10 day off contact. FaceTime helps take the sting of being away for 20 consecutive days.
There are many contracting agencies offering similar contracts in China. Look into Direct Personnel, Cambridge Communications LTD (CCL), Sigmar, to name a few.
They can provide a wealth of information regarding positions offered overseas for those with families.
It's a great deal to expect a young wife with young children to uproot and move overseas. Being away from home, family and friends. Then habits that are unacceptable to the locals. Flightcrews get out to the real world where the spouse and children are left behind. Many countries don't allow spouses of crewmembers to obtain work permits. Boredom and the doldrums usually set in resulting in split relationships.
Sure, there's the glamour of living overseas. However, depending on what part of the world you and your family are locating to may soon wear off.
The facts are that one must put food on the table, pay the mortgage and insurance, and save for college. Sure.... Airlines in the U.S. Are hiring. Doesn't guarantee that every applicant will get that dream job. That said, the reason for looking overseas.
A compromise may have to be made to keep the family unit as stable as possible without disrupting the lives of so many.
A friend of mine with young children is on an overseas contract with a 20 day on 10 day off contact. FaceTime helps take the sting of being away for 20 consecutive days.
There are many contracting agencies offering similar contracts in China. Look into Direct Personnel, Cambridge Communications LTD (CCL), Sigmar, to name a few.
They can provide a wealth of information regarding positions offered overseas for those with families.
06-13-2016, 04:56 AM
#17
time for crew rest
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: B777 Captain
Posts: 121
I spent 21 years in the USA flying for the airlines (including 2.5 years with a regional), and have been working overseas for most of the last 8 years due to the demise of my long term USA airline. I've lived in Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Bangkok, and now am a B777 captain for one of the 3 big Middle East airlines.
There are so many variables that it is hard to answer this question, but in general I would say it is a good time (the best I've seen in my career) to be a young aspiring pilot in the USA. I do not recommend the young guys to go overseas, at least not in this environment. Your best opportunities both short term and long term will be in the USA.
There is a wide range of factors that will affect your decision, and the factors increase dramatically when married with young kids. I have a wonderful job right now. I love my job. I don't so much care for the place I live in, but with time off and good travel benefits I can tolerate it. My airline loses pilots on a regular basis, and it is not because they don't like the job. Everyone I talk to loves this job. People leave because the wife isn't happy or the educational options for children are limited. But others are very happy. It just depends upon your situation. Unfortunately, most of the places hiring expat pilots are not the best places to live.
The job options increase dramatically for those of us with lots of Jet PIC experience. Some countries and some airlines insist on training locals for the low time SIC positions and only hire Captains to fill those positions for which there are no qualified people in their country. Some countries (Korea for instance) who hire expat first officers do not upgrade them. Never! I've known guys to spend 6 years in Korea as an F/O only to go back and take their place at the bottom of the seniority list at United. But when he took that job in Korea in 2008, there were no other options in the USA. The situation is different today. Take advantage of an outstanding hiring environment that you have in the USA.
My airline does upgrade F/O's. In fact it is about a 5 year upgrade time, so we have both narrow and wide body captains in their early 30's. That might be an attractive option for some, but if you're married you'd better be sure your family is going to like it. New hires sign a 3 year bond, so you're stuck with it for 3 years. By that time the hiring binge may be over in the USA.
There are so many different situations, and everyone has a different agenda. Make your decisions carefully and good luck.
There are so many variables that it is hard to answer this question, but in general I would say it is a good time (the best I've seen in my career) to be a young aspiring pilot in the USA. I do not recommend the young guys to go overseas, at least not in this environment. Your best opportunities both short term and long term will be in the USA.
There is a wide range of factors that will affect your decision, and the factors increase dramatically when married with young kids. I have a wonderful job right now. I love my job. I don't so much care for the place I live in, but with time off and good travel benefits I can tolerate it. My airline loses pilots on a regular basis, and it is not because they don't like the job. Everyone I talk to loves this job. People leave because the wife isn't happy or the educational options for children are limited. But others are very happy. It just depends upon your situation. Unfortunately, most of the places hiring expat pilots are not the best places to live.
The job options increase dramatically for those of us with lots of Jet PIC experience. Some countries and some airlines insist on training locals for the low time SIC positions and only hire Captains to fill those positions for which there are no qualified people in their country. Some countries (Korea for instance) who hire expat first officers do not upgrade them. Never! I've known guys to spend 6 years in Korea as an F/O only to go back and take their place at the bottom of the seniority list at United. But when he took that job in Korea in 2008, there were no other options in the USA. The situation is different today. Take advantage of an outstanding hiring environment that you have in the USA.
My airline does upgrade F/O's. In fact it is about a 5 year upgrade time, so we have both narrow and wide body captains in their early 30's. That might be an attractive option for some, but if you're married you'd better be sure your family is going to like it. New hires sign a 3 year bond, so you're stuck with it for 3 years. By that time the hiring binge may be over in the USA.
There are so many different situations, and everyone has a different agenda. Make your decisions carefully and good luck.
06-13-2016, 01:23 PM
#18
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 9
There are some options closer to home that may work for your TT. Tradewinds, Seaborne, Cape Air, IBC and a few others may get you what you're looking for in the Caribbean and it's only a couple hours on a plane back to the mainland. Most of those have a San Juan base you may be able to get to at least keep you in the "USA".
06-13-2016, 02:27 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 167
Originally Posted by fatbus
But with that being said, I think TP said it . Do what you have to to get to a US legacy . You will never look back even if you have to deal with a layoff at some point.
It's great to work overseas if you are looking for an adventure, but the time you spend over there, is seniority lost if you ever plan on coming back here.
06-14-2016, 02:59 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: 767
Posts: 84
If you think your going to find some kind of amazing family adventure working at most expat airlines you're in for a real bad time. Expat flying is for a young single guy who doesn't give a **** or an old guy who has no other options to make money for retirement after a bankruptcy. If you bring your family to some third world country or the middle east you're brain dead. Get jet time at home and explore the world with staff travel.
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