Move to ANA from US major?
 

I made it! Major Airline pilot flying 767s for a US carrier. But wait.... look at all these overseas contracts! $$$$! Upgrade opportunities! 14 days off in a row per month! Commuting contract with business travel both ways!

Anyone have first hand experience moving from a cushy US major to Air Japan/ANA 767 FO?

You can't possibly fly for a major US airline or you wouldn't even consider leaving. The only airlines considered major are United, Delta, American, Southwest, Fedex, and UPS.

Nowadays the movement is going the other way....!

I've been out here for ten years and it has worked out for me but that is very subjective. Many others have returned stateside and many more are on the way back as well.

Given the state of the industry in the US..., if by a major you actually mean ONE OF THE MAJORS..., and not some papas & mamas backwards operator..., then I must urge you to rethink that plan and stay put.

What's Dynamic?

The Dominican: Why the move back to US carriers? Worse pay and starting at the bottom of the seniority list. Do they miss CASS privileges?

I'm pretty happy where I am, schedule wise, but the pay doesn't come close to letting me afford a house in base. Maybe after I upgrade in 7 to 10 years.

I was thinking about shipping overseas to build up a good $500,000 down payment and return after the contract ends. If US hiring has slowed by that time, maybe extend the contract to kill time, hopefully upgrading at ANA in the mean time. The big risk is, of course, missing this US hiring craze and the associated seniority.

Is the money at ANA worth it? What is life like while working? Living at home with 12 days off in a row, business class back and forth doesn't sound too bad! Especially if upgrades occur within 5 years. And what are the chances of the contract not extending and getting beached?

I'm reluctant to make a change at this point, but if someone would like to try to convince me to leave for ANA, please try! The knowledge would be appreciated.

beeb, you would be crazy to leave a U.S. major for an overseas deal unless you were being furloughed. It's honestly not worth it. There is a reason they are always advertising! The training in Japan is 9 months to one year which is just ridiculous. Have you sat on a jet for 12+hours every month after flying for twenty days? You can also be downgraded. You would regret the move after 6 months realizing you have possibly another six months of training. Have you read about the high failure rates in Japan or Asia or the Middle East?

Hang on to what you have for dear life. You won the lottery and now you want to give it back? Have you lost your mind???

ANA also doesn't upgrade in seniority like union US carriers, so you might get stuck as FO permanently. A job like ANA is good if you want to live in Japan. The jobs in China can pay a LOT more, but China is more difficult all around, starting with the medical, than ANA.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fo...air-japan.html

Why the move back to US carriers? Worse pay and starting at the bottom of the seniority list. Do they miss CASS privileges?

Long term you will fair a lot better money wise at a major in the U.S.,
I'm not sure that you are looking at the contracts correctly. Several of our pilots that left to United, UPS for example, are already making the same money as F/O's that they were making as captains here just after a couple of years of going back.

There is another thing that you might not be counting on, if you plan to live in the US and commute from there, you won't qualify for any exemption and you will pay taxes just as if you work there.

The contract is not that good as it looks on paper, the money that they give you as an allowance won't be enough to cover your expenses while in Japan, living at the hotel is unsustainable long term and apartment living is expensive...., sure, you can share but that college style living also takes its toll and it still pretty expensive..., you will literally have to live on a third of what you make to save the figures you are talking about and that is only after you make captain's pay for 5 years.

I'm pretty happy where I am, schedule wise, but the pay doesn't come close to letting me afford a house in base. Maybe after I upgrade in 7 to 10 years.

Seniority is everything on the US industry...., unless you are furloughed..., you will lose your number.

I was thinking about shipping overseas to build up a good $500,000 down payment and return after the contract ends. If US hiring has slowed by that time, maybe extend the contract to kill time, hopefully upgrading at ANA in the mean time. The big risk is, of course, missing this US hiring craze and the associated seniority.

There are many more risks envolved......, training here is not a given and historically about 20% of folks fail initial training. Also the upgrade training is not a given, although the upgrade assessment is done by seniority and it starts about the 3 year mark...., the average is at about 50% right now for passing the upgrade evaluation process.

Many factors play into that, the lower experience level of the new joiners being one of them...., but the odds are not so good and many guys are being knocked back to the right seat.

Is the money at ANA worth it? I personally don't think so, I think, as a matter of fact I know that the money will be better at a major long term.
What is life like while working? It is actually not too bad and that's one of the reasons as to why I have stayed..., it is a well organized company and they treat us relatively well, good hotels (with a couple of exceptions) well maintained airplanes and just about the most professional cabin attendants and costumer service personnel you will come across.

Living at home with 12 days off in a row, business class back and forth doesn't sound too bad! Especially if upgrades occur within 5 years.

It isn't bad at all, somebody mentioned if you have been in an airplane for 12 hours after working for 20 days..., I have for the past decade and I can say with most certainly that the commute is a LOT easier than when I was working at the regionals in the US...., business class on ANA is very comfortable and you end up sleeping most of the way anyways. Upgrade is gamble like I said.


And what are the chances of the contract not extending and getting beached?

It could happen but there are only a couple of cases that I know of people not getting their contract renewed..., and let's just say that it wasn't a surprise to anyone. Not getting your contract renewed is not an issue.

I'm reluctant to make a change at this point, but if someone would like to try to convince me to leave for ANA, please try! The knowledge would be appreciated.

I'm certainly not going to try to convince you of anything...., at the end you will do what you feel is right but both economically and professionally you will fair better long term at a major in the US than working contract.... That is the reason as to why people are leaving, and going back in significant numbers actually..., there is a mini exodus going on right now.

This lifestyle works for some but not for others....., many of the guys that have decided to stay working contract are on similar circumstances...., furloughed.., airlines have shutdown...., they get married and grow roots out here is a big one.

The age that we find ourselves at..., all those factors play into the equation.

All things considered if I were you, at this juncture of the airline industry in the US, with the retirement numbers coming up and considering the contract numbers...., I would not make that move...!

For what its worth, I left AJX after 7 years to start over at the bottom at UAL. On third year FO pay, I am just about making what I made as a captain at AJX. Quality of life is not even comparable. I'm not a zombie anymore and am able to enjoy all of my days off. For most, being at a major will be significantly better in every aspect.

This thread seems trollish. There is no way in a million years you should leave a MAJOR flying a 767 to go to ANA in this hiring environment. I have done three years in Japan. No way.
Majors flying 767's... AA, DL, UA, Hawaiian. No one else (cargo notwithstanding). You will make more money at year two pay at AA, DL, and UA then you would at ANA. Further, those are career jobs. ANA is a contract job.
These is either a troll post, you are incredibly dense, or you are not at a major and are at Atlas.

All right, it sounds unanimous. Thanks for the specific information and good lists of reasons not to go overseas.

The Dominican: Thanks a bunch for the first person perspective. Just what I was hoping for.

Where are you getting that you can bank $500,000 in 5 years working at AJX? That is not going to happen. I am here and like it but you can make much more working in the US. If you want to make more money then you will have to go to China and hope you actually get paid what they say you will.

Just curious, but are you at one of the legacies? If so, stay there. You will make more there for your career. If you aren't happy and want to move then try FedEx. You will make more there than AJX and it appears that the most junior captain now has only been there for a year and a half.

Point is AJX is an ok place (could be a lot better with pay increases), but a legacy in the US is a much better place for the long term career.

Sage advice as always from the Dominican and ATPcliff too. Stay put beeb and hang on for dear life.

I looked at ANA/AJX back in 2007 when I was teed off at AWA with the state of our merger. I had a voluntary furlough set up and I searched for a decent contract job. I could not get past the recruiter at Crew Resources. He could not accept the fact that I was a 757 captain at AWA/US and I wanted to go to AJX, even though the pay was about the same.

I do not know the state of contract flying right now, except through this and other pilot sites. I do know that after the merger with AA and our new contract, substandard as it is, there is very little incentive for me or anyone past 3 years on the seniority list to look overseas. Several PHX pilots flew in China, none plan on going back, even though the money there is comparable or exceeds widebody left seat pay here. 16 % into your 401k is something that does not come close to being matched overseas.

Ive been getting 14% into my 401K for the last tbree years in Japan.

You guys keep saying that 2nd or 3rd year FO pay at UAL is comparable to 5th year CA pay at AJX, would you mind throwing out some hard numbers for those of us who only have access to the hourly pay rates? Thanks.

Been considering AJX for a while now, but feel like I may look back and resent ny decision for leaving so hastily as I'm at a regional with a flow to AA now. I would estimate that flow to be 3-5 years barring any catastrophic downturn and I am about to turn 30. Would you all recommend AJX for someone in my position, or do you think it would be wiser to be patient and wait to flow?

TIA

Wait for flow. No question.

Pay in Japan has actually been decreasing, which blows my mind. The AJX contract is very good, definitely the best in Japan, but it is still a contract job. Having worked a Japanese contract job, I can tell you that every person there says the same thing, "Nothing beats working a legacy job in your own country." Those words were literally told to me by the chief pilot.

Take that for what it's worth.

Having known a lot of contract guys, both corporate and airline, my advice would be if you want to move and live in that country and you are a career pilot, fine. If you're doing as just an option, not so much. Post-9/11 guys excepted, they were in a real bad spot.

GF

I wouldn't recommend that move in your case...., but of course everyone has different reasons as to why they make their choices in life....., this being a cyclical career we just don't know what's behind the bend. Back in the day when I got my first "Welcome to your last job in aviation" letter (No emails back then) I certainly didn't expect to be working in Japan 30 years later but that's the dinamic of timing in this business.

Right now it looks like the upswing of the industry will last for a while so the best thing would be to stick it out and get a seniority number with any company...., apply everywhere! Don't just wait for the flow!

We tend to paint all jobs abroad with a very wide brush. This is not a bad gig really and it works for some people, but career wise for somebody who is 30...., definitely the best long term option would be to get with a major.

This guy obviously doesn't fly for UPS, FEDEX, DL, AA, or United. Those are the best flying jobs in the world. People only leave those jobs when they are junior and going go another one of those companies for qol issues.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...... "What's Dynamic?" Please tell me you're not labeling Dynamic Airways as a major airline. You can't be serious.

whack.....yes...i believe this guy works for dynamic

And he's labeling that carrier as a "U.S. major"?! :eek:

Hey yeah sorry beep but dynamic isn't a US major. I'm not so sure what the pay rates and QOL is at dynamic because it doesn't have a profile here on APC so I can't tell you what would be best.. maybe going to Ana would be a good move I don't know. But what I can tell you is keep making career decisions to make it to a US major like united delta American sw fed ex or ups and you will see what we are saying about never wanting to leave. Good luck!

I would leave Silver for Dynamic, that's about it.