GAMA / WHEELS UP - Current Pilot Experiences
 

Gama Pilots,

Thank you in advance for sharing your answers and experiences.

I’m looking at joining Gama with the focuses being on schedule, quality of life, and benefits. I’ll be coming in as a Captain with quite a bit of corporate and 135 experience over the span of 20 years. Not looking to achieve Airlines. I am a corporate pilot. The pay seems to be OK, and the benefits seem very nice, but it’s always the little nuansecs that can make or break a job.

I’d like to ask the current pilot pool about their experiences.

Is the 8 on 6 off schedule worth how hard you work during the 8 on?

How hard do you actually work? Legs, hours, etc.

Are the hotel accommodations nice?

Do you receive crew meals?

How is the airline travel back and forth?

How is the equipment?

Do you have to change the ‘honey pot’ yourself every leg?

What are things to be aware of when making the decision, that isn’t advertised during the hiring process?

Are you basically looking towards greener fields, or do you feel content to stay with Gama for a long time?

Anything and everything that can be added to the conversation to aid in a decision is deeply appreciated. Thank you!

1. 8/6 pretty good. It depends on which aircraft your on and location of the airplane on how hard you fly. Some days 4 or 5 legs some days 1 leg.
2.same thing some days are 4-5 legs others days you may sit hotel reserve. Just depends on demand and time of year. It’s not 8 days of 10 hr flying by any means. Doesn’t mean you won’t have a long day or two every once in a while.
3. Mostly Hilton/ Marriott a few IHG thrown in. Some BFE locations it can very. But we are talking one stop light towns.
4.If you have long days with not enough time to get food they will either get you a crew meal or get you Uber eats. But if you have a 3 hr break they expect you to get your own food.
5. Equipment very good and most well maintained.
6.Yes-But not every leg... most customers don’t even use it, so why change it. The average flight leg is 1.2hrs. Most people unless drunk can hold it that long.
7.Gama wheelsup is in major expansion mode so all the fun that comes with growing pains of a company. There’s a lot of hiring and new HQ employees
8.it depends on your age and dreams. I could easily stay 20 years or go to a major.

The only thing I might add to this response - People come in expecting to get to the jet quickly. The guys I've seen go to the jet recently have been here 3+ years. I expect that number to go up once all the Xs (which are coming slowly) are on property. If you're not content flying a King Air and dealing with those realities (lav service, no ground AC, climbing over passengers and their dogs, etc.), this isn't the place for you.

I would also check out the Gama/Wheels Up threads in the 135 section. Wheels Up is not a fractional program. You may get more responses over there as well.

my experience was great at Gama, I was also left seat, not bad pay (NJA's new TA pays right seat about the same as left seat at Gama though) I got the feeling that if you are in Wheelsup you pretty much stay Wheelsup. What concerned me is that Wheelsup made a big deal about making sure you know you are not their employee and they can walk away from Gama whenever they want. Fun people but just realize it's a lot of work, no dispatchers, you file your own paperwork and flight plans, you empty the ****ter etc.

You're correct that it seems from some people's evaluations that the new TA from Netjets means that their FO pay could end up being the same as Gama left seat. The big difference is that it a lot of soft money at Netjets where it's all salary at Gama. For some people having the money guaranteed is a big factor.

You're also correct that Wheels Up could leave Gama. I never got the impression that they wanted to make sure The way Wheels Up's COO described the contract with Gama was that Wheels Up has to give Gama a years notice of leaving. So barring anything crazy, there would at least be that much notice. Also, looking at the reality, it would be pretty darn hard to up and move 80+ aircraft and all those operations to another operator. Not saying it's impossible, but I would think it would take a lot before trying to make that change.

May sound crazy but I think WheelsUp is successful enough that NJA could purchase a part of it if DK would allow it, which he may, he likes their money!

GAMA / WHEELS UP - Current Pilot Experiences
 

For those currently at Wheels Up have you seem them hire career changers who have the ATP time requirements but experience is solely Part 91 and minimal twin time? Also any insight into the interview process?

Interview lasted 30 minutes and they told me via Skype we were hired, good people

Ain't gonna happen. The real money is in the larger cabins. The only reason NJA keeps the small cabins is to entice pax to move to larger cabins. And WU has a lot of NJA's discarded airframes. No way will NJA want those things back.

Probably right, their target customers are completely different, they are pretty clear at NJA that they charge a "premium" and the average customer is worth north of $25 million. WU is looking for the group of Doctor's who want to have a fun golf trip or go to a college football game.

Guard is right. The strength of the franchise is that the King Air runs about a grand less an hour than the jets. It is not a fractional in that it does not require a large outlay to "join the club." WheelsUp is all 135, not 91K.


WheelsUp is targeting a more dollar conscious customer, but the good news is that there are many more of them. When you get into the big cabin airplanes you are competing over a much smaller customer base.



Netjets was originally conceived to attract small company's that didn't think they could afford to operate their own aircraft. Instead of buying a complete airplane you could buy a share of one. Wheels up is a membership organization, you can even buy a membership at Costco. Wheels Up Memberships Available From Costco | Jet Charter News Alerts, Broker-Operator Directory ? FlightList PRO


Here is the basic cost breakdown. [Membership regular price for individuals is $17,500 annually and corporations $29,500 annually according to Corporate Jet Investor. Annual dues (starting second year) are then $8,500 for individuals and $14,500 for corporations, plus a fixed hourly price for each hour flown – the cost per hour of getting on the King Air is $4,295 per hour and the Citation Excel/XLS is $7,495 per hour according to a report from the private aviation industry resource.]


The WheelsUp model is much closer to the "Marquis Card" model. That's no coincidence as WheelsUp CEO Kenny Dicther invented the concept. It was so successful that NetJets bought it. Marquis Jet Card | The Black Card | Centurion Card | Visa Black Card | Luxury Credit Cards


WheelsUp is attracting the lower end of the market but it is a much larger market to begin with.

NetJets didn’t buy MarquisJet because it was successful. Kenny didn’t fit in with Sokol and Sokol pushed Kenny out.

Marquis is making NJA a lot of money of you believe management!

Today that may be true, but in 2009 Marquis returned a lot of aircraft and was a huge money loser for NetJets. The card sales dried up and put a big chunk of the 495 on the street. I like Kenny, he always seemed like he cared. That doesn’t change the history that Marquis is a short term revenue stream that can be unstable.

2009 probably had something to do with a crashing US economy, not a form of membership one would think.

I am not saying that MarquisJet is a bad business. I’m responding to the person that said Marquis was bought by NetJets because it was successful. There was a lot more that was going on, including the 2009 recession.

Ha. And KR from FO put in a bid for Marquis at that time as well I am sure NJ didn't want him stepping and taking that business from them even though it did lose money after the market crash.

Kenny is a brilliant sales man, he and his high school buddies have created a great business with WU, but like Marquis Card he puts all the risk on someone else, this time Gamma!

I think others have answered most of your questions, so I'll keep this short -

I was hired over the past year as an FO. I, along with most of my class, resigned within a few months. They (mgmt) put on a great show during training about their safety focus, but day-to-day experience dictates otherwise. They hired most (all?) of my class over the phone - no interview. My personal opinion is they are a violation waiting to happen. Lots of corners were cut during my time there. Chief pilot has criminal rap sheet (look it up). If he (or a few others in mgmt) have anything against you - your chances for upgrade are minimal. This didn't happen to me (wasn't there long enough), but several senior instructors warned me about it. It seemed like everyone was trying to leave - or at least the ones who were young enough to go to a 121.

There are some positives - but I felt the negatives far outweighed them.

Just one person's opinion here, FWIW.

Curious. How so?

Does anyone remember who we use for uniforms? Was it Twinhills?

Yes, Twinhill is correct.

You mind laying some facts down, instead of personal opinion? Cutting corners and not being safety focused goes against everything I have experienced with this company.

GAMA expects the work to get done, but in almost 3 years I’ve never been asked to do anything illegal or unsafe. And if they did, I’d go to my super or straight up the ladder to the DO and get things resolved. More often than not our dispatchers and flight followers are way more conservative than I’m used to.

This is a completely false statement. This place is by no means perfect but to say they are unsafe and cut corners is B.S. If anything they are overly cautious when it comes to safety. Their hiring mins are high, the equipment is new and well maintained, they pay the subscriptions for the XM-weather & safe taxi etc, and all pilots go to flight safety for recurrent training every 6 months. We have a comprehensive SMS and ASAP program too.

People have their own different reasons for leaving here, (mostly greener pastures calling) but cutting corners when it comes safety is not one of them.

Das,

Funny, I was thinking the very same thing.

Brian and his friend John appear to be trolling a bit. Seems to be working based responses to their posts. They’re roiling the pot on other threads too.

Yep. Probably some teenage brat posting nonsense on airline forums in between squeezing his pimples in front of the mirror!

If they only knew captjns like I know captjns. The trolls WISH they had his experience/qualifications.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yes - I do mind.

Providing details will likely get me recognized - I'd prefer to remain anonymous. I'm sure there are plenty of pilots there who have had radically different experiences than I did. I know a violation when I see one . . . I've been in this industry long enough. I wasn't the only one in my class with this concern - which is why most of them quit once they were exposed to the day-to-day operation.

I have nothing to gain by posting this - a pilot asked for opinions, and I took the time to give mine. If you don't like it, then move to the next post. I'm just glad I didn't stay - I'm told it hasn't changed

False?

I was there - I know what I saw. And by no means was I the only one who saw it.

Hiring mins? Many of us were hired over the phone. Had things been different, I probably would have stayed. I've made a few stops in my career . . . I wasn't impressed with this place.

I would not call the place unsafe, but its a big boy program, they give you the tools to be safe but its in no means a 121 operations, you're your own dispatcher, everything is on you, that said, you have the tools to do the job. Flight followers are basically maintenance washers. Lot of work though if your use to having a dispatcher watching your every move etc.

So what? You don’t work at Gama anymore. If you’re going to torch a company then give details.

If you didn't meet the hiring mins you wouldn't have been hired would you?

So you're saying that if you weren't hired over the phone you would have stayed? Why accept the job in the first place when they called you if that's what upset you so much?

You know what you saw? Go ahead and tell us then. Did you bring your "safety" concerns to your supervisor? Submit a report to the dedicated safety department? My guess is that you didn't. Instead you make vague and false accusations on an anonymous forum.

False?

Because you're apparently smarter than everyone else - even smarter than those who might have witnessed things that you didn't.

Funny how nearly all of my class quit within the first few months. I guess I wasn't the only one who saw the culture for what it was.

I'm willing to concede that you didn't - or haven't - seen anything that alarmed you. What I find interesting is that you can't give me the same courtesy.

So no example, huh? Just torching. Fine. That's what most of APC users do. Just badmouth with no evidence.

Most Companies ( Even non airline companies) hire via Skype,FaceTime,etc. welcome to the 2000s.

Your whole class quit.... It wouldn’t hv anything to do with a pilot shortage and SWA,FedEx,Delta,American,Atlas,Spirit,United,UPS,A llegiant, and Regionals hiring and offering up to 58,000 dollars of bonuses.....WOULD IT????

I get it your frustrated about something that you didnt like. But go to the Delta forum or any greener pasture airline, and there are pilot *****ing over there about company contract abuse.

As any good pilot would do and if there really is unsafe working conditions say NO!

I’m sorry if GAMA made you fly IFR, clean a toilet every now and then, didn’t give you a 3 day vacation in Keywest, and made you file your own flight plan. But welcome to the 135 world..... It’s obvious yoru a true blue 121 loyalist. Where They have a person to do everything for you besides sit there and manage the FMS.

I’ll give you some free advice. I wouldn’t try to get on at Netjets,Flexjets,XOjet, and any 135 carrier. They all besides Netjet ( Which has dispatchers for flight planning) will operate the same way. All of them have paying customers that some time want to fly out of a city that’s IFR conditions and want a clean plane.

I'll dumb this down so you can understand it.


A prospective pilot for WU asked on a public forum for opinions from those who have worked (or are working) there.

Since I worked there, I offered my opinion. Some of you did - others didn't.

If you'll notice, I didn't attack anyone's opinion. Nor do I think I'm so clairvoyant that I know what other opinion-givers should have seen (or not seen) while working there.

Nor did I attack anyone's qualifications.

Nor did I make assumptions about the other posters.

Honestly, I didn't give others' opinions a second thought.

Why? Because . . . (wait for it) . . . I DON'T CARE if you share my opinion - or if our opinions are diametrically-opposed.

I just tried to do the person a favor - the same favor we've all asked before starting with a new company. You collect several opinions, weigh them based on their relevancy, and try to make an informed decision.

Now, if I were this person who originally asked the question . . . and I read some of your responses to my initial post where I stated my opinion . . . I would have serious misgivings about the pilots who fly there. Clearly, they don't tolerate differing opinions.

Safety violations or no safety violation, if I were forced to fly with a bunch of know-it-alls, I think I'd find another place to fly.

But hey - if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me, then please continue.

And if you think I care about your opinion, please reread this post

And a bunch of us are trying to inform new prospective pilots that what your saying maybe a far fetched story. I would absolutely defend you if you gave a clear reason why, but We asked for examples we don’t get any. But we are to believe something we don’t even know from you. Did managment ask you to fly below mins, fly a broken plane, lie on paperwork, put you in a holiday inn express instead of a Hilton, ask you to clean a plane, run naked down the street, do loops in the plane?????????

We have no idea if this is an HR problem or an FAA problem. So you look like a fool know matter how much you don’t care about what we say.

Most classes at any company your lucky to have 50% of the class there after 6 months for various reason: Drop outs, Wash outs, Delta offers you a job, family situation has changed. So to make foolish claims they all left bc of one mysterious incident that you can even conceal with general things like “ I was supposed to fly from XXX-YYY the weather was 230/45G99 M1/4sm Ovc001// And managment told me if I don’t theyd fire me and put me in jail”..... Makes you look stupid.

Hey I bash former companies all the time but I give clear precise reasons so a newbie can determine if this one pilots point of view would happen to me would I want to go threw it.

I’m pretty sure every pilot commenting on the post wants to believe you and address on going problems but with out any type of reasoning we have no way to make this into a company you’d want to come back in a few years if things were to change.

Let’s get down to facts:
1.We are 8/6 if that’s not something you can deal with don’t apply here.
2. Like other companies instead of buy a 500.00 plane ticket. They choose to use Skype FaceTime and or other computer tools to do an interview. If this is your issue I feel sorry for you.
3. You will fly King Airs like all planes they do have maintenance issues from time to time. They are not unsafe or being held together with duck tape.
4. The pay scales are up front when you apply. Take or leave it.
5. All family insurance is covered.
6. Yes they expect you to work as in : clean the plane restock the plane,load bags, do flight planning, check oil.
7. People from my class have left, one to fly for Delta the other a part 91 operator offered him a job to work M-F at an airport 5 miles from his house. GAMA did nothing wrong in both those case. So to insist 25% of my class quit with in 4 months because of how GAMA is would be a lie.

And it’s obvious you care about my post if you responded to it so nice try!!

It's also worth noting that several guys who have left here have come back. One was in my class, one was my initial IOE captain. Fortunately for those guys they were smart enough to leave on good terms and were welcomed back. It appears that you may have burned that bridge now with your false accusations on a public forum.

I'm about to enter my 5th year at Gama and for sure have days that have frustrated me, but NEVER because I was asked to do anything unsafe.
The minute that happens my resume will be spread like strip club fliers on the Vegas strip!

Legitimate gripes are fair game for perspective applicants, but spreading false rumors of a poor safety culture is doing a disservice to them.