NorthTxFlyBoy

Having spent my whole flying career in the military up until about a year ago, I admit I don't have nearly the knowledge of the way things evolved on the commercial or corporate flying side that I should. So yes, it's a serious question and not just a troll thread.

How is it that Pay by Seniority (PBS) within a given company became the standard for professional pilots? For example, how did it become acceptable that a UAL captain with 10,000+ hours would have to "prove himself" again by a year of probation and several years as a first officer just because he switches to, let's say, American Airlines? A doctor, for example, wouldn't have to become an intern again and return to first year salary because he decided to (or had to) work for another hospital.

Has this become the norm because it reduces the politics, favoritism, nepotism, etc. in the hiring and salary process? Is it because company loyalty is that necessary in this industry? I could understand that reasoning if trade secrets were the issue, but design engineers and scientists who have knowledge of company trade secrets have never adopted this pay system.

How did the ridiculously low first year salaries at major airlines and cargo carriers ever get to be acceptable to pilot organizations? If it were an attempt to recoup training costs, then we should see senior pilots who switch aircraft types by choice taking a huge pay cut for a year during mid-career. Is it because the new pilot is an unproven commodity? How would that justify getting paid significantly less for doing the same work? Is this payback for company-specific training? Once again, this drastically lower first year pay is not common in other professions that I know of, so why is it for pilots?

Once again, I'm not advocating change here or trying to personally lobby for anything. It just all seems very odd to a newbie who's never settled for the answer of "it's always been that "way" or my personal, least favorite response of "it is what it is".

-NTFB

FlyerJosh

I'm no financial or management expert, but I'd say that the lack of one collective bargining unit for all pilots is what really created this issue.

Although there is a "national" union that serves as the voice of pilots with regards to political matters, the national union plays very little role in the negotiations conducted on the local level at each airline. As such there has been no "standard of pay" set across the industry like there is with regards to other "union shops".

Since each individual company (and it's respective pilot group) negotiates their own contract, the interest of the pilots on each property is their focus. As such, the contracts are written to reward the employees that have been there the longest and commit to staying beyond their probationary year.

Of course that's a very simplistic reason, but that combined with the various reasons for unionization and other factors that affect the management/labor relationship at a company that employs a large group of employees has resulted in the seniority and reward system of benefits.

Outside of the airline/unionized world, most corporate and charter operators that are non-union still operate on a "pay based on experience" system.

Simply put- It is what it is... but only because of how things started out way back when ALPA started.

Bloodhound

Maybe I'm over-simplifying it but I'd guess it has everything to do with labor contracts. As everyone knows, pay is based on company seniority and once you change companies, you start over at the bottom of the list. I think, because seniority is ONLY based on longevity and not qualifications or experience, we have this system. For example, say you've been at ABC airline for 10 years and you have 10k hours in the 737. Now some guy comes in as a new-hire with 11k hours in the 737 and he's now making $5k/yr more than you.

Or maybe it's just easier logistically, I don't know.

jtf560

Seniority is one of the main commandments of unions and unions are what shaped the current system. You should get a copy of Flying the Line to get some significant background on the history of unions (ALPA in this book) at the airlines. Some people like a union and some don't, but if you read this book or go to work for some non union companies as a pilot, you will probably soon realize the necessity of unions for our profession. There are some places that is has worked out well without a union, but those are few and far between in aviation.

I believe American Airlines is were the B scales and first year at hideously low pay started and the other airlines went with it as soon as they could.

FlyerJosh

Seniority is one of the main components of the unions. However the pilots union is different from most in that they don't keep "comprehensive" seniority lists across company lines.

In other unions, "locals" are regional shops which "farm out" members to local companies at set wages. Members make the same amount of money regardless of who they are working for and wages are set at a regional level with consideration to national trends.

In the pilot union "locals" are "company shops" and only represent pilots at one employer. Wages are set at the local level with consideration to national trends.

edznaz

Correction. You don't have a stupid question, we have stupid answers. This has been one on the biggest problems with ALPA and the like, and we (yes, I'll share blame as a member and active volunteer) never put our self-centered interests aside long enough to deal with it. I don't claim to have a full "national list" plan, but there have been several out there, and many seemed viable to me. Painful in the short, but would advance our profession for all in the long.

Just my 2 cents

Z

NorthTxFlyBoy

I'll look into that one. I hadn't heard of it before.

I've already been able to see some of the differences between the union and non-union shops, but my thoughts were along the lines of what Josh was saying in that, lots of places are union, so why are we different.

Thanks to all who responded so far for thoughtful, flame-free responses.

-NTFB

Bloodhound

Flame-free because of the bad-a$$ avatar. It's not a hot chick but very cool. It would make a great tattoo for someone.

A little off-topic quick question. Does anyone know if pro athletes' contracts are governed by the RLA? If I were guessing, I'd say "no" but just wondering.

Navajo31

Looking at another profession can help see NTFB's point. There are a bunch of teachers in my family. If they move from one school district to another, they are normally hired at the same "step" they were on with the previous employer. This allows teachers to move freely from one location to another without losing pay.

Of course, training costs are not an issue in that profession. There is a significant cost to mobility in the aviation industry, thanks to FAA regulations that require a pilot with 10,000 hours in a 737 at Company A to go through the same training as a pilot with none when both are hired at Company B, and an FO with 1,000 hours in the plane to go through the same training again to become a CA.

GeeWizDriver

RLA means Railway Labor Act. Airlines were lumped into the areas covered by the RLA because of their importance to the national transportation infrastructure. Last time I looked, throwing a baseball, shooting hoops, catching a football, or making a stick save have little to do with the transportation industry but a bit more to do with selling beer.

Pro jocks don't have to ask anybody's permission to strike but railway workers and aviation unions have to be abused for a few years, negotiate hopelessly, and mediate endlessly before they can even ask for a cooling off period at the end of which they can finally strike (and then have a Presidential Emergency Board order them back to work).

Or was this not a serious question????