Voting no...👎
 

Based on substandard hourly ASK rates, which I said 2 years ago were low, the substandard LTD, plus the *happy* attitude as evidenced in the last Co. response. mark me down as a no, a big no, nada, zip. A big thanks to the Negotiators, you must want to take a shower after every interaction with them. However, ALPA’s insistence that we ask for reasonable rates is killing us. Please don’t song and dance me about our slightly higher monthly min.
No, no, no, vote it down by %90+ and I’ll wait. I AM NOT GOING TO BE LAST AGAIN! Carry on....

Maybe we should just wait and see when we actually have something to vote on?

You obviously are entitled to vote the way you want, and are welcome to vent frustration here. However, I think this attitude isn't helpful. And as I've said many times, don't vote until you have something to vote on.

The NC has a plan. They have a plan and have stuck to it. Everyone knew that negotiating big raises with Indigo was going to be exceptionally difficult. This is likely the most difficult negotiation possible; asking for truly huge raises and asking for them from a management team that seems to only have 1 goal, low cost. This is going to be hard. The NC knows this, and they had a plan of attack. The plan was to ask for a completely reasonable contract and push thru the RLA process as quickly as possible. Remember, we got a mediator faster than probably anyone ever has. We have followed every rule, been a perfectly behaved pilot group and the NC has asked for average across the board. The goal is to get a deal or get released.

If you think we can up our ask and get released, you are wrong. We are doing everything right to get released. The process is long and painful, but we are doing all the right things. If the NC upps the ask now, we will lose the chance to get released. Plain and simple.

I believe we will come thru this process with one of the largest raises in history. Don't start shooting it down now. We need to stay smart, stay clean and let the union push us thru the RLA process.

Attend a road show. The union isn't going to present us a TA until it's worth accepting. I understand people are upset by what they have seen, but no one has seen the full picture. We are going to keep hard line bidding and not go PBS. That's worth a fair amount, right? Don't vote yet.

Ok, I’ve been a big advocate of making sure we have an above industry standard contract for a while. I’ve also mentioned our initial ask was too low. That was NOT just salary - it was everything.

But even I know not to make my mind up before we even have a hint of what we’ll be getting. To me, the objective is above industry standard. Period. Whenever that happens in the process (first offer, 3rd, 6th, 128th...). Doesn’t matter.

This is "sell job" language.

I don't think you meant to be like that, but this is prime example of how to lower expectations. I do understand the gravity of getting such a large raise in the eyes of the NMB and so forth, but were SO far behind, it's going to take the biggest raise ever to get on the street that has the ball park on it.

As soon as I hear this phrase from someone at a road show, I'm just going to assume they caved, and move on to the next topic.

^^^^Yes.

The LOA 67 rates proposed were supposed to negate the ability to use this “largest raise” argument. We were to get to the street with the ballpark after LOA 67 resolution then ballpark with the AIP. Never happened as Indigo presented the 1% upward pay adjustment.

We needed approximately 25% just to get us started. They offered 1%.

Sometimes it seems like we are trying to make a deal with some meth-head on Craigslist through anonymous texts. “Hey bro, I see you’re asking $5000 for your car. Will you take $250?”

I totally get why you would say that. But I am not trying to sell the contract that we don't even have yet. I've been arguing to not vote until we have something to vote on.

What i was trying to say, is that this contract was always going to be a very tough fight. We are asking for some of the biggest pay raises ever. . ..... And we absolutely deserve it!

This will be a tough fight, but I believe in our NC and their plan. We need to trust them and let them push us through the process. Upping our ask would backfire. They are trying to get us released. We can't sabotage our position by upping the ask. The NC has a plan. It's just a long, tough fight.

I agree. This is an extremely tough negotiation.

Well, you can't vote on anything now, so chill the **** out.

I didn't think you were trying to sell anything at all, I don't mean to attack you personally. However, I have heard that kinda phraseology from union folk, and its maddening/depressing.

I also don't mean to beat the drum of the OP and vow to vote down an AIP, because we have nothing in front of us. I fully intend on reading the entire thing, then judging it.

BUT, we have info out there on what has been agreed to, and it's bad. Plain and simple. People are just mad about that info so far. Could it turn around, sure. Is it likely, who knows.

Either the NC is genius, or we're going to get sold on a massively disappointing contract to work under for the next 8 years. At least if that happens, we can work over our vacation months and get a taste of what everyone else earns.

Posts like these are amazing to me! As if your premature no vote is supposed to scare the union?? Why don’t you wait for an actual document to vote on before you start tough-guying with idle and ignorant rhetoric. The NC has made it clear from the get-go that work rules play the largest factor in why our rates are where they are. If you and everyone else out there chanting “up the ask” are not wise enough to comprehend the value of work rules, I’m sure the union is happy to know that you’ll be part of the 30-40% of people they know will vote NO. And for Halloween next year, maybe wear your NO costume out through the neighborhood. You’ll see that it won’t scare anyone there either but the laughter may be a bit louder than it is on APC.

pi·lid·i·ot ˈpielidēət/

noun informal

noun: pilidiot; plural noun: pilidiots

1) An ignorant breed of aviation professional, simpleminded and miserable by nature, perpetually impaired by delusions of grandeur. halfwit, ignoramus, moron, simpleton; informal dimwit, jackass, chucklehead, blockhead, bonehead, knucklehead, dumb-ass, lamebrain, peabrain, chowderhead; vulgar slang asshat assclown "that pilidiot is such an asshat, he can’t seem to keep his ignorant piehole off of Facebook"
Pilidiots are an unusual, but not uncommon, breed of airline pilot, bestowed with a bizarre, almost arrogant, sense of self-righteousness, self-entitlement and superior intellect. Pilidiots are typically intolerant of the opinions of others and can often be found locking horns or sniffing each others asses while carelessly opening their piehole on social media sites such as Facebook and Airline Pilot Central, their preferred environs where they seek to enlighten fellow pilidiots through demonstration of their absolute incomprehension of, unawareness of, unconsciousness of, unfamiliarity with, inexperience with, lack of knowledge about, lack of information about, understanding of, or cluelessness about; any subject matter pertinent to their livelihood. Pilidiots often reside within the top 1% of wage earners, an extraordinary statistic considering they commonly lack an integral component required of their occupation — sound decision making — routinely making some of the stupidest, most counter-intuitive decisions known to mankind. Hence, pilidiots have an astonishing ability to stockpile 1st world problems at a rate unheard of since the dawn of the industrial revolution, helping to engineer individual scores on the human misery index that would be described as inconceivable outside of failed nation states such as Burundi or Western Sahara. Given certain limitations — word counts of 100 or less — pilidiots are remarkable consumers of the written word. However, across the board, pilidiots are often born with or acquire, a perplexing inability to comprehend the written word. Powerless with coherent written communication, pilidiots gravitate to mediums more conducive to the spoken word — again with limitations. They can operate a telephone, but only to converse with other pilidiots. They can hear but are afflicted with an acute inability to process factual information into auditory signals of which the brain is capable of understanding. Although unproven, it is widely accepted that pilidiots are incapable of comprehending the concepts of reality and fact. Pilidiots are virtuosos in the art of dispensing unsolicited and unfiltered advice on how to handle highly complex and nuanced situations which, when acted upon without thorough consideration of potential negative ramifications, may expose their pilot group to a series of injurious implications. Commonly the pilidiot clings to an ideological belief that a systematic approach of “carpet-bombing” is the lone elixir to be used for problem solving. Pilidiots presume that broadcasting hastily contemplated, shotgun approaches to problem solving will produce "Eureka" moments for their listeners, when in reality the pilidiot has only confirmed beyond doubt that his future suggestions on strategy and observations on the commercial airline industry should be considered with as much weight as that of a house cat tweaking on methamphetamine. Pilidiots are a needy, entitled and curious sort, believing it to be their God-given right be “in-the-know.” Amazingly, with 99% of the information they seek available in the public domain, pilidiots wholly claim to be deficient of information, preferring to cast themselves as victims of treacherous plots and schemes — set in motion by their union leaders — to deprive them of the information they desire to exist, regardless of whether or not such information actually does exist. Although, for the most part, pilidiots can capably perform actions to retrieve available information themselves, they prefer and demand to be spoon fed knowledge. Pilidiots are adept at utilizing e-mail spam folders as their chosen filter for critical career-specific information disseminated (a.k.a "spoon fed”) by democratically elected members of their Pilots union. Pilidiots hunger only for the information they want to hear and, in a world of black & white, pilidiots see grey, but often believe their world to be blue or orange. The intellect of a pilidiot can best be described as “poverty-stricken."
A more vocal subset of the pilidiot population is the Pilidiot Royale, a pilidiot who traversed an alternative path to aviation, one set in motion through life skill achievements attained through the bailing of hay, shoveling of cow ****, or sweeping of snow from ski-lift chairs. Often residing in the top 20% of the seniority list at their airline, as a blind squirrel occasionally stumbles upon a motherload of acorns, these pilidiots staggered into jobs with a 3rd rate, start-up airlines, while their peers were busy being hired at major airlines such as Delta, United and American. Following in the path of fellow ****-shovelers before them, these pilidiots achieved occupational nirvana in record time, exploiting the desperation of 3rd rate, start-up airlines seeking to fill their rosters based on the following qualifications: (1) willingness and (2) a pulse. Like a random winning lottery ticket winner, pilidiots sometimes find that their 3rd rate, start-up airline survives to evolve into a 2nd tier airline or, better yet, is acquired by a well established carrier, providing a false sense of career achievement, further feeding and entrenching their delusions of self-righteousness, superior intellect and entitlement, helping the pilidiot to ascertain that they have nothing left to achieve for they have risen to the pinnacle of commercial aviation — The Pilidiot Royale!

Call or email your reps to vent your frustration. You’re not taken seriously on a public forum.
New hashtag
#WHINING

Wow. That was really something...

Totally overbaked. I've got a wicked hangover. You get what you pay for here...

Drinking to forget how bad the contract IS and WILL BE.

Wow... somebody’s off their meds today...

100% right on.
:eek:

This!!!

Ask the AS bubbas how that approach worked! We we told by ALPA to trust them because the mediator/arbitrator want a reasonable approach. What did we get in arbitration??? A screw job, because, as the arbitrator put it, “both the pilots and the company have demonstrated the pilots were willing to work for less than market rates”.

Way to go, ALPA.

We have a winner!!! Winner for most unintelligible post of the day!! Congrats

I understood it. I take it he’s an Alaska pilot talking about his disappointment with their recent arbitrated pay rates and ALPA’s involvement leading up to the arbitration.

Bingo.

We regularly asked and were told by our reps and the NC to “trust them”. When we asked why our proposal was sub-market and not trying to leapfrog the current rates, we were told as I posted above.

Nobody wanted ALPA to ask for anything unreasonable... but ask for less and you get... LESS.

Predictable outcome.

Not to mention they've known all along what Jetblue was asking for.

I'm afraid I can't say that I'm all that impressed right about now.

Bump...
 

I must have me sum kynna kristahl bawl er sumtin

DC7C,

You stated it correctly months ago starting this thread. Its unconscious to think that asking low to get a quick deal on an LOA just to hopefully get something more in the near future. I stated this on another thread and was accused of being a troll since I dont work at F9. I will tell you this much. You dont see any other Major including the one im at using this ask low get it quick strategy. This is why I stated that if I was at F9 I would be irate and would be leading a charge to get in a new NC and leadership. Their strategy failed so its time to bring in new blood much like what happened at DL and SWA.