new hire?
 

Please help me to understand..........

Im a regional pilot (FO) who has the opportunity to go to Frontier and live in base. I would take a paycut the 1st year then make almost double the income that I would at a regional. Why would I not make the move? I understand that the contract has stalled but Im trying to do whats in the best interest of my family.

serious responses please

Because you are undermining your own cause to have an even better life. Just because you'll make double your current pay next year is pretty moot. You should be making 3-4x it based on the rest of the industry and coming here just slows that process down.

Then there are the lies spread by management about the rate they are hiring and thus the upgrade time. Sure if they hire people like you upgrades can be quick. But there aren't many like you out there.

Then there is the operation. Seriously it was somehow 100x better at the regional. This place is constant chaos, and doesn't give a F about you. You'll know what its really like to be just a number and nothing more. Every single day at work I have problems, its just sorely mismanaged and it really makes coming to work suck.

Just wait it out for a little longer for everyone's sake. It'll be worth it.

Because you will be stuck here.

If you want to join Frontier then do whatever is best for your family. No one is going to give you a hard time. The only thing I will add to the above is if that base you will be living in is Denver then pretty much forget ever upgrading into it (thus making you a commuter anyhow) and if it is one of F9s other bases then there are other airlines with much better pay, benefits and qol than Frontier.

Even with a contract this management team will not support its pilots! How would you like to come to work everyday knowing that your management team totally despises you! This place is truly that bad in moral.

The above response is true as well. When the time comes to upgrade it will not be in Denver! You will have to commute anyway.

I personally would hold off and look elsewhere.

Good luck on whatever you ultimately choose to do.

My $0.02
Do NOT chase pay or upgrade...... my biggest regret was doing just that and I missed my kids growing up..... put time with family FIRST
The $ will eventually be there, lost time will never be returned

Quick upgrades, to the pay rates in the left seat for what the rest of the industry pays in the right. That is all any applicant needs to know.

The selling point of quick upgrade is ludicrous when you will have more responsibility for significantly less pay.

1) Canceled vacations b/c of management vindictiveness
2) 100’s and 100’s of grievences
3) 40% if our flights are redeyes (try those for a while with a at home family)
4) Terrible Mx
5) Treated as a “cost center” and not as an employee
6) From our CEO “there is no goodwill between us (management) and the pilot group”

List goes on and on......

And realistically probably an 8 year upgrade if you started today.

http://frontierpilotfacts.com

I don’t think the reason ALPA made this video is to attract pilots.

In my opinion, the ONLY way we will get a contract is if people stop showing up and the company is forced to raise the pay to attract qualified pilots.

Just want to add my name to the list. There are so many signs that say don’t come here the union has a website devoted to showing you the poor conditions here, they only recently got rid of the training contract that was basically a tool to trap you here until it became just too blatantly obvious that it was scaring away all but the most desperate, the canceled vacations, the retaliatory discipline over sick calls, the list goes on and on. But the overwhelming negative responses you are getting are the most obvious, please don’t be one of those guys who asks and gets nothing but negative responses and then discards them all in self delusion shiny jet syndrome. Management has created an absolutely toxic environment that basically gets worse by the week. Any quality of life improvement will be negated because all days off will be spent working on apps. If you really think this will be better for your family everyone will welcome you. It’s none of my business but I always quietly think to myself how this could be better for anyone.

flyalot,

People who ask for “serious responses only” are usually looking for people who will reinforce their decision to come to this place. So it appears your mind is already made up. I’m truly sorry to hear that. After looking through your posts, you seem to have something to hide from a previous employer, which means somewhere in your interview you lied, or avoided telling the truth. So now I understand why you are aspiring to be at a bottom feeder. Also, it showed you want to be in Chicago. Good luck! Chicago is shrinking. As for the serious responses, every response to the ridiculous question of “should I come to F9” that tells you “NO!”, Is a serious response. Whether it comes with bitterness, humor, sarcasm or even downright anger. We are in a WAR, with management, and the only two things that may help with that are the NMB, and people not accepting to be shat on their whole career. We know how the NMB turned out, but only people with a little self respect and some backbone can take care of the other. I can’t tell you not to come here, but at this particular juncture, I think it’d be the WORST decision you will ever REGRET! I still can’t believe people are stupid enough to even interview here right now. Do you think that once we get a contract we won’t need people?

Do your research. There is NO CONTRACT ON THE HORIZON. There is an IMPASSE in the negotiations and we aren’t even close to what the greedy bastards that run this place want to give us! They are CANCELLING VACATIONS! And by coming here, you are helping management delay all of this. They are FIRING PROBATIONARY PILOTS, and when you get dragged onto the carpet, they WILL NOT ALLOW THE UNION TO REPRESENT YOU! Who in their right mind would jump at the chance to walk into that sh!t show.

Like I said earlier, by coming here, you are helping delay this. May not be a big deal to you cause you use the excuse “well I’m just trying to do the right thing for my family.” Well, so am I, And so is everyone that is already at this dumpster fire. And you and all new hires for the past year are standing in the way of that happening!!! So by all means, way your options. But think about all the people who have been at this airline for 10, 15, even 20+ years, then think to yourself, how you would feel if you knew that people were purposely and selfishly delaying and or preventing you from something that you sacrificed for and have been waiting 11 years for.

For the geniuses who are going to try to point the finger back at me, I am trying my darndest to get out of here. This place has been THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE, AND I AM STILL PAYING FOR IT!!! You are not gaining an advantage by getting an interview and getting hired here. You are HURTING AN ENTIRE PILOT GROUP! Nothing is lost by waiting a few months to put an app in with Frontier. I know you all are really excited to start flying bigger airplanes and be at an airline that “prints its own tickets”, but if you pursue a job here you are selling yourself short and telling everyone here that you don’t give a crap about our plight. My “serious” advice to anyone looking for a major is to apply everywhere, except Frontier, And take the best offer that presents itself. I couldn’t be more “serious” if my life depended on it. Don’t give up on yourself, and JUST DON’T EVEN APPLY UNTIL WE HAVE A CONTRACT. You’ll thank me later. Many people have.

WINTER IS COMING!

110% READY TO STRIKE!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgjII4CRi4

Frontier Pilot Facts

http://www.frontierbadbargain.com/

When I came here I had high hopes, I was recommending F9 to all my friends. That has changed. Now I tell my friends to avoid F9 at all cost. I was on the fence whether or not to enjoy seniority and wait for a contract or get out. I’ve decided to try and get out. I’ve since applied to every legacy and major cargo carrier. Flyalot it’s been that rough lately, as of now no sings of improving.

I wouldn't recommend someone buy a ticket on us right now, let alone work here.

I picked between coming here to live in base or upgrade at my regional. I picked Frontier hoping we would get a contract soon and I really shot myself in the foot. Guys here in my position are seriously considering leaving for direct entry captain slots if that tells you anything and with a little over 2 years in I’m on the fence as well. If you have 1000 hours pic at Skywest then I think it makes a little sense but if you don’t, stay where you’re at and get the 1000 hours.

Well, OP, you asked for serious responses, you got them. I can’t decide which poster had it best but they’re ALL correct. You literally won’t find ANY poster here that tells you it’s a good idea to come here right now. I had hopes right up until this retaliatory minded management group cancelled the August vacations back in early July. That was the point I said “no more”.

No more telling any potential recruit anything but, “don’t even apply until we get a contract.” If there’s any hope of their growth plan they’ll settle our contract and be hiring future Captains for years to come. There is NO rush to come here. Either you come here after a contract and upgrade relatively quickly or come here now and risk NEVER getting a contract and being stuck in the right seat at regional rates. But hey, you get a table to eat your lunch on.

Somebody says they think Chicago would be your preferred base... How’s 2 years to a line sound? Chicago is our most senior FO base and is stagnant. When you finally get a line it will be full of unproductive 13-hour four day trips with a couple red eyes each week.

You heard SWA’s hiring window is open right? They have a Chicago base and it’s junior! Just don’t take my spot in the pool.

My advice, take a signing bonus at an American wholly owned regional. You double you income for a year and have a flow with American. Keep your apps current at other airlines you would prefer over American. Worse case scenario those airlines never call, you end up with a career at American Airlines which also happens to have a ORD base.

This:




Everyone I know is trying to get out. When you mess with family vacations you've gone too far.

And this:




If I was a few years younger that's what I would do. Do yourself a favor, stay away from this place. Everyone in my class is trying hard to get out.

I’m an MCO based pilot and I will echo everything posted here. Read it again if you need to. It’s spot on.

I wouldn't apply to frontier today under any circumstances. I'd do anything except fly for frontier, including pizza delivery. I don't care how temporary you think it might be, there's no reason in today's economy and job environment to work for an abusive employer. There are simply too many other options and Frontier isn't a rung on any kind of career ladder that must be climbed before you can get somewhere better.

Maybe someday Frontier will become a reasonable place to work for, even as a long term permanent job. But right now all the reports are that it's an extremely toxic place to be. Don't do that to yourself.

Beware shiny jet syndrome!

Ultimately, you have to answer for yourself what is better for your family.

Understand that going to F9 and getting more SIC time but in a larger plane will not be viewed nearly as well as getting PIC time in an RJ by any of the larger majors (AA, UA, DL, WN, FDX, UPS).

What that means is that going to F9, in a best case scenario, is getting you almost no benefit in improving your options at other carriers and worst case is putting your entire career at risk. (based on the current environment)

I personally believe that the current times we are in are some of the best times ever to be a pilot that is looking to move up in his/her career. While the specific values that the big airlines place on experience across different aspects of our careers are not precisely known, the general values sure are. They like PIC time more than SIC time. They like 4 year degrees. They don't like multiple training failures. They don't like DUIs. ETC... Changing airlines and not getting any improvement in the areas the bigger carriers care about and risking getting negative attributes they don't like, means you are looking at this new carrier as your potential last carrier. So, is that new carrier one you are comfortable with being your last carrier?

The decision you face is an absolutely easy one to me!

Delivering pizzas over working as a pilot at frontier????

Holy hell some of you are so tough on a keyboard. Resign your seniority, go get a job delivering pizzas, I’ll give you $1000 after 30 days on the job, and bow down to you for being the first pilot in history who’s balls are as big as his mouth.

What a joke....

Sorry but knowing the issues at Frontier why the hell would you consider going there? Low IQ?:eek: You have to be trolling the board. Why is anyone still there? I truly hope every Pilot there has their app out and is trying to leave the dump Franke has created.

I sure wish I could leave. Working here is a battle every day.

I have had my app in with United for years, starting with the paper scantron form in the late 90s, never ever heard a peep. And if they don’t call within a year it financially won’t make sense for me to leave.

Knowing that you are trapped in this burning cesspool is a very bitter pill to swallow. Luckily I work with the best in the industry so it isn’t all bad.

Our pilots aren't any better than elsewhere. Some are stuck by choice and some are stuck because well... It's a whole different animal.

The guy mentions the one good thing we have (each other) and you p!$$ on it.

Be serious for a half a second. 1200 people are not going to up and quit just to start over at the bottom of another seniority list. This yammering on and on about why would anyone ever stay here is stupid rhetoric.

Why someone, in this climate, would apply here in the first place? Now that's a legitimate question.

Frontier pilots are just the same as everywhere else. There seems to be some persistent and really stupid myth that F9 guys and gals are somehow better. If anything, a lot of them seem content to be the dumpster divers of our industry. GTFO, the grass really is greener!

Pretty stupid comment on your part! I am here is because when the time to get out of Frontier early on in my career, no other airlines were hiring pilots. In fact, furloughed UAL pilots were going to F9 until they got recalled. Now 15+ years later, I have the golden handcuffs and I would not make up the difference in pay if I were to go to another carrier. Very easy for you to Monday morning quarterback, but please think before what you post!

Golden handcuffs? I think tin is the metal you are looking for....
12 year captain pay including 5% match is $175. Second year FO pay UAL 756 (yes, you can hold that as a second year) including match before profit sharing $187. Oh you have more vacation, CANCELLED! There is no way you would make less by going to a legacy. I have not been successful in getting in, but I'm still trying.

This is a stupid comment. Third year pay at UAL is just a couple dollars behind a maxed out F9 captain. Keep dumpster diving and rationalizing! Golden handcuffs - thanks for the laugh!

If I could get a job for 150k (slight pay cut) and stay in the US I would vanish...... until that happens $&#@%!,

12 year captain.

Looking for a way out.

It will always be ****ty here.

Do you think we are going to be at our current pay in three years?

There is no rationalizing here. Common sense, which you have none!

Rusty Chain is right. It will always be ****ty here with a contract with this management group!

For pilots in the second half of thier careers it’s a little more difficult to leave for the bottom of a legacy right now. I wouldn’t characterize it as golden handcuffs but I definitely know where bolo is coming from. I’m closer to 50 then 40 and tried to leave for a legacy roughly 4 years ago with no luck. Checked all boxes, attended multiple job fairs, had several friends at DL and UAL recs. Met with chief pilots at DL and UAL. I have a 4 year and well over 10,000 hrs and no skeletons. After two years and several thousand hired younger than me at both it was time to take a break from the constant updates and job fairs. Thats when I decided to get involved and do everything I could to try and make f9 a place to hang my hat. After several years of that I’m probably going to update the logbook and start the process of leaving again. But I must say I’m not looking forward to it. At all. I’m probably to jaded and it’s going to be tough to put on a happy face. Not to mention we’re one day closer to the next recession and number 14,000, at DL or UAL won’t be a good place to be when that happens.

You won’t concede that it’s even possible? Common sense does not lead one to believe that 3 years from now Frontier pilots will be working under a different CBA. I hope we are, but at this point I think it’s 50/50.

If it is a new CBA in 3 years or less I would be willing to bet money that it will be sub-par.

If we haven’t been released yet, we won’t at all under this NMB. The only way the company is going to agree to anything is if we allow them to gut our line bidding and the benefits that come with it. Even then they won’t settle for anything over and above Spirit rates.

This is going to be a long fight.

I'm honestly starting to think there's a scarlet letter attached to the chest of anyone with over 10K hours these days. PS. I like your post, transparent and forthright.

From an earlier post
There was a thread on DL where one of their LCAs spoke about training issues. He said the hardest were the 50year old 20 year regional guys (“set in their ways, not used to outside inputs”), followed by military (“always very well prepared, but big change in how things work”). Easiest were the 25 year old 3 year regional FO. I remember this well, as a 50 year old guy who still has(had?) hopes.....

Flew with a lot of 10-15 ex regional captains that gave up on the legacy dream and came to NK after seeing all their FOs “skip the line”.

Funny thing is I thought that might be a bit of an issues as well and made sure all the apps were in when I had 9,950 hrs. I was 39 and a half years old as well. I guess the first update sunk me.