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At Spirit many of us had the same “I’m a NO vote” mantra when we were presented with PBS. Now it seems most of us can’t wait till it takes effect because our increased trip and duty rigs kick in. If your scheduling committee will truly control PBS then I wouldn’t worry too much about it at this point. Wait to see what the PBS LOA says before making a decision. Additionally, I assume you all will be getting some better rigs in this deal. Better rigs means better pairings are built by the company. Then PBS (controlled by the union) places these more efficient trips on the pilots. I would hypothesize that most of your schedules would improve drastically. Wait to see the details, do your homework, talk to others, go to roadshows, and then vote based on what is best for you and your family. Congratulations on the AIP and good luck!
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Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2702687)
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down. Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla. I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter. |
Originally Posted by Powderkeg
(Post 2702709)
Effing brilliant post, Aero. Bravo.
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Congrats on the AIP. At least you're moving in the right direction.
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Originally Posted by F9 NO Voter
(Post 2702445)
Yes, I realize this is a first time post. It is a first time post because, under my real screen name, it would be fairly easy to identify me and I am concerned about retaliation from the company....yes, I have grown to trust them that little.
I don’ t have to see this AIP / TA / whatever you want to call it to know that I will be a solid NO vote. The reason for this is that this is absolutely NOT the best this company can do. How do I know that? I know that because that’s not how negotiations work; something is ALWAYS held in reserve. This company has more money / work rules held in reserve for the possibility of it not passing. They know that there is a quantifiable cost for any percentage point over 51% by which this thing would ratify. That is all they want and need....51%. That is all they’ve offered. I want more than that! I can assure you, this management group didn’t just decide overnight - out of the goodness of their benevolent hearts - to capitulate and give us a contract for Christmas. For some reason, known only to them, they need to get this done sooner rather than later. Do not fall for it, my brothers, YOU have the leverage!!! They don’t want to get this matter put to bed, they NEED to get this matter put to bed to make them even MORE money. PBS is a concession. Period. There are no two ways about it. The only reason DL, UA, etc. have PBS today is because they gave it as a concession during bankruptcy. Additionally, ALPA National wants to get this done so they can quit devoting time and resources to the process and move down the road and get ready for contract openers at DL, UA, etc., so their spin machine is going to be in full motion mixing up the Kool-Aid for us. Don’t drink it, kids, it’s poison!!! Do not fall for the ALPA spin and the Indigo trap. Do not drink the Kool-Aid. Stand strong, brothers, and hold the line. THERE IS MORE MONEY AND THEIR ARE MORE BENEFICIAL WORK RULES LEFT IN THAT WHEELBARROW!!! |
Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2702687)
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down. Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla. I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter. Those SWA pilots weren't always well paid. They began raising the bar when they were saving money to get the window crank fixed on their '71 Pinto so they could roll the window down. We need to take a lesson from them. |
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
(Post 2702737)
Don't forget that SWA pilots have been raising the bar for a LONG time. They began raising the bar when they were a small lowly LCC group trailing the majors in every fashion.
Those SWA pilots weren't always well paid. They began raising the bar when they were saving money to get the window crank fixed on their '71 Pinto so they could roll the window down. We need to take a lesson from them. |
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
(Post 2702664)
Don't be afraid of "more time" and "time value of money" etc. Those are scaredy-cat words. The company will be back post-haste with a new TA.
For the first time in forever, we hold the cards. But if human nature is any predictor, we will sell ourselves short because we lack basic courage. If this TA is brilliant, and every bit what we deserve, then vote it it in. But if you vote yes, even slightly, out of fear you're pathetic! That said, I also explained that a shortfall equating to $15/hr whether in actual money or work rule value would almost certainly be worth fighting for because as long as the renegotiation takes less than a year it would still be worth it. Things to take note of are the length of the contract and % of lost wages of the signing bonus. The shorter the contract duration the lower value and increase would have over that time period and higher % reduces the value of returning to the table as there is less upward movement available there. All it means is, look at the package. How close is it to what you want? Its not going to be what you want, I want 75 hr guarantee with 1 turn per month at $1,000/hr. Thats not going to happen...this isn't to say set yourself up for disappointment, just learn what our peers actually have. How do we compare? We MUST be leading in some areas, but you would then expect to fall just a touch short somewhere else. JetBlue's is decent, but its not Delta or United. I could guarantee there will be areas that we will not like. The questions will be how much are those parts worth, how much do the good parts make up for them, and how long might it take to fix what we don't like. Again based on my previous talks with our NC, I feel they did understand this time value, I don't believe they would send us something that is junk. Read the TA in its entirety when we get it. Decide if it is worth it to you. If we can do better and get it done within a reasonable amount of time (another year or two) then by all means lets vote it down. |
Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2702687)
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down. Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla. I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter. I really hope you guys have an AIP/TA/Contract that blows ours out of the water because 1) you’re a good group and you have dealt with a lot of ****** over the last 10 years 2) it will give our guys some buyers remorse and hopefully invigor them for our next contract negotiations and 3) it will raise the bar for everyone. I just caution you not to expect Delta plus 10 percent with 15 percent direct contribution and 6 hour min day at DOS. Where you are at now is largely going to determine where your AIP/TA is. Read your TA, attend your road shows, and ask the tough questions. At the end of the day, if the TA works for you, vote it in. If you feel that you’re worth more than they are presenting AND you’re able to live under your current contract for an undefined up to indefinite period of time, vote no. Also keep in mind that the fact that F9 currently cannot attract pilots is may be the current case, but is definitely a variable that can change if, for example, the economy falters. For the record, I was a no vote (I know, every one is a no after the fact, believe me), not because of PBS or the pay rates. I was a no because our reserve drops were gutted and because we gave way too much schedule flexibility within our working footprint for what we got in return and I could have lived just fine under our former contract indefinitely if needed. |
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
(Post 2702688)
Delta only hires pilots with at least a 4-year degree.
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Originally Posted by Gary et al
(Post 2702744)
My post explaining the time value of money was just that, an explanation. It is nothing to be afraid of, but always something to consider, and to not consider it is foolish.
That said, I also explained that a shortfall equating to $15/hr whether in actual money or work rule value would almost certainly be worth fighting for because as long as the renegotiation takes less than a year it would still be worth it. Things to take note of are the length of the contract and % of lost wages of the signing bonus. The shorter the contract duration the lower value and increase would have over that time period and higher % reduces the value of returning to the table as there is less upward movement available there. All it means is, look at the package. How close is it to what you want? Its not going to be what you want, I want 75 hr guarantee with 1 turn per month at $1,000/hr. Thats not going to happen...this isn't to say set yourself up for disappointment, just learn what our peers actually have. How do we compare? We MUST be leading in some areas, but you would then expect to fall just a touch short somewhere else. JetBlue's is decent, but its not Delta or United. I could guarantee there will be areas that we will not like. The questions will be how much are those parts worth, how much do the good parts make up for them, and how long might it take to fix what we don't like. Again based on my previous talks with our NC, I feel they did understand this time value, I don't believe they would send us something that is junk. Read the TA in its entirety when we get it. Decide if it is worth it to you. If we can do better and get it done within a reasonable amount of time (another year or two) then by all means lets vote it down. Thanks Gary, I do understand what you're saying, I appreciate the detail too. |
AIP rates?
Just curious where all these regulars are seeing these tentative rates......while I imagine they are texting them to each other (DEN crowd) or via FB or other social media (I don’t play)......any info appreciated.......
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Originally Posted by Prettywhacked1
(Post 2702835)
Just curious where all these regulars are seeing these tentative rates......while I imagine they are texting them to each other (DEN crowd) or via FB or other social media (I don’t play)......any info appreciated.......
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Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2702845)
No one has seen actual rates yet. We've just heard rumors that the rates will be close to our original ask. Until the union emails us bullet points, we are just guessing.
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Original and 2 year ask rates
Does anyone remember these, and be kind enough to remind me?
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Originally Posted by DENpilot
(Post 2702903)
Apparently some aren't guessing... it would seem the OP and several others know what they are and dead-determined to vote no, work another couple years under this POS contract we have now, all to get an extra $5/hr....
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Originally Posted by F9 NO Voter
(Post 2702967)
They must get this done. There is no way it would take “another couple years.” It would be done by 2Q 2019 at the latest.
The rest of us would like to hear what our union has to say. I am optimistic that this is going to be a good deal. I will not vote down a good CBA just to squeeze out another couple bucks an hour. Do you watch the news? Do you know how volatile the economy is right now? Do you follow the other airline forums and read about the growth rates slowing at other airlines? Voting down a good CBA would be an irresponsible gamble at this point in time. |
Originally Posted by F9 NO Voter
(Post 2702967)
They must get this done. There is no way it would take “another couple years.” It would be done by 2Q 2019 at the latest.
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody
(Post 2702977)
Do you have facts to back up this claim? Maybe you are a rich kid with a trust fund or a have a bread winning spouse paying your bills.
The rest of us would like to hear what our union has to say. I am optimistic that this is going to be a good deal. I will not vote down a good CBA just to squeeze out another couple bucks an hour. Do you watch the news? Do you know how volatile the economy is right now? Do you follow the other airline forums and read about the growth rates slowing at other airlines? Voting down a good CBA would be an irresponsible gamble at this point in time. |
I’ll vote NO, to satisfy my conscience, any TA will pass, life goes on....
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Originally Posted by ReserveCA
(Post 2703019)
I’ll vote NO, to satisfy my conscience, any TA will pass, life goes on....
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Originally Posted by RustyChain
(Post 2702982)
You're ****ing nuts. It wont be anywhere near that quick.
Also anyone who thinks the operation is near a breaking point or they won't continue to find other means to mitigate the lack of pilots showing up is crazy. I'm just saying we owe it to ourselves and our co workers to give this an honest look. |
Originally Posted by F9 NO Voter
(Post 2702967)
They must get this done. There is no way it would take “another couple years.” It would be done by 2Q 2019 at the latest.
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Originally Posted by ReserveCA
(Post 2703019)
I’ll vote NO, to satisfy my conscience, any TA will pass, life goes on....
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Originally Posted by ToddChavez
(Post 2703029)
I just can't follow this line of thinking... I'm only hopeful that logical thinking will drive the rest of the pilot group who cares about their careers and the rest of their pilot brethren...
It's just me |
Originally Posted by ReserveCA
(Post 2703041)
Basically after being bent over for twelve + years and being subject to the indigo mgmnt groups greed and folly there is no way they would agree to contract terms that would be acceptable to me personally. .......
It's just me |
Originally Posted by motorboatin
(Post 2703040)
Annnnd just like that, I stand corrected!!!
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I vividly remember the APLA MEC members telling us in ground school that they wouldn’t accept anything less than industry standard and that PBS was off the table. If the numbers were seeing/hearing are correct, it’s well below industry standard and they agreed to PBS.
Not exactly encouraging. |
My airline is in negotiations. If we get to vote, and our new contract doesn't have the minimum things I want in it, I will vote no. The chances I will vote no are almost 100%, because the contract will probably not have the minimum items I want in it.
We have Line Bidding now. It takes a long time to bid, and it is hard to get the days off I want. We had PBS: It was easy to get the days off I wanted, and it took very little time to bid. There is a massive Pilot Shortage now, that is getting worse. The Pilot Shortage is making it more and more difficult for HR to fill classes across the industry. Generally, if you sign a substandard contract, mgmt will be forced to come back to fix it relatively soon, as the pilot manning will deteriorate. If you wait for a better contract, the longer you wait, the better terms and conditions you will get, as the pilot manning situation deteriorates. Bottom line: Either way could be better, so it's hard to say which option is better in the long run. |
Originally Posted by ReserveCA
(Post 2703043)
Don't kid yourself boat....there are more than enough voters to take the $ and run....
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Originally Posted by motorboatin
(Post 2703046)
I think you missed the sarcasm from my previous post which makes it even better!!! :cool:
Kind of like the new wounds starting class tomorrow. ... |
Originally Posted by ReserveCA
(Post 2703041)
Basically after being bent over for twelve + years and being subject to the indigo mgmnt groups greed and folly there is no way they would agree to contract terms that would be acceptable to me personally. .......
It's just me |
Originally Posted by ToddChavez
(Post 2703055)
�� So you recognize you're not being reasonable and letting pure emotion drive you?
Because any TA will pass |
How many are showing up to class these days?
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Originally Posted by BlackhawkIP
(Post 2703100)
How many are showing up to class these days?
Biffle went to the last round of interviews and told all the applicants that they would get a deal by the end of October and supposedly that filled the November class. I believe that class starts today. |
Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2703121)
The October class got less than half to show up. Hence the company came to the table.
Biffle went to the last round of interviews and told all the applicants that they would get a deal by the end of October and supposedly that filled the November class. I believe that class starts today.
Originally Posted by atpcliff
Generally, if you sign a substandard contract, mgmt will be forced to come back to fix it relatively soon, as the pilot manning will deteriorate.
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Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
(Post 2703171)
Oh great, so even the mere mention of a "framework decision" is going to fill classes now. That pretty much shoots atpcliff's assumption out of the water.
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Originally Posted by Planepirate
(Post 2703193)
If I were wanting to go to Frontier, I’d apply now. It’s gonna get more competitive if a TA passes. I wouldn’t care what the few tards on APC have to say.
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Originally Posted by Need a real job
(Post 2703206)
Yes voters coming out of the wood work... weak
Any TA put out for a vote will pass... |
Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2703121)
The October class got less than half to show up. Hence the company came to the table.
Biffle went to the last round of interviews and told all the applicants that they would get a deal by the end of October and supposedly that filled the November class. I believe that class starts today. Anybody have the total numbers for new hires for 2018? Comparing that to 2017 would be an interesting comparison. |
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