I find it interesting that the thread is titled Frontier vs. Spirit and yet the OP has an offer from United & Frontier…..

To the OP, if you do have an offer from Spirit as well, I would actually recommend Frontier over us. We’re further along in our growth than Frontier, so the quick upgrade chances I would say are better at F9 than NK. If the recent meltdown has you dissuaded, it was most certainly NOT the norm. We do have regular meltdowns, but that last one was the most epic one I’ve had during 3 CEOs….

Also, commuting SUCKS! If you have the opportunity to drive to work (especially if it’s a junior base) TAKE IT!

Your relative seniority will be better at Frontier. Which will allow much more flexibility schedule wise. With flexibility you get soft credit pay. Living in base allows you to pick up premiums without giving it too much thought. Not going to lie, PBS makes it much harder to get soft pay compared to line bidding.

Can't really argue with UAs hourly rates. You can still make 300K+ at UA being in the right seat of a wb while working 12-14 days with commutable lines. However, I honestly don't know how long it will take to hold a like on a wb. Upgrades are short at UA, but how long is the reserve?

If you have any specific questions PM me. Good luck!

Lots of thoughts on this one.

Everyone is using year 12 pay as a comparison between UA and F9. What you're not mentioning is the huge pay discrepancy for the first several years as an FO. You're also assuming a very short upgrade at F9 or NK. Any of that could change on a moment's notice. The UA upgrade is based mostly on attrition, not growth. Basically guaranteed, long term. I'd say that if you're under 35, or even 40, UA is a no brainer. You'll likely have a shot at wide body captain for your last 5-10 years. Just pick up your things and move to a base. Your life will be a lot easier.

That said, the case for F9 is pretty strong here. Over 45 with kids? Life disruption is a major factor. Commuting definitely sucks. The ULCC's offer an opportunity to make up for lost time, if all the forecast growth pans out. In terms of system wide percentage, you could be in the best position at a ULCC. One more hiccup, internationally, and the legacies could be in trouble. At least short term.

The case for F9 and NK would be stronger with a significant increase to years 1-5 FO Pay. Profit sharing wouldn't hurt, either.

I recently went through a mid life career crisis, too. None of this is easy.

There’s more risk of a merger with Frontier potentially, and risk of base closure in general but people aren’t going to suddenly want to shell out a bunch more cash for an airport experience once every 12-24 months. The demand for cheap travel is never going to go away.

I’ve had a couple of Frontier 4-6 year captains on the Jumpseat recently commuting. They’ve been talking about how they can drop down to 60hrs half of the year and 70hrs the other half and that works out to about 18-20 days off a month and how it’s been a great part time job for them. Quick math put them at a little under $200k a year including the DC contribution to work a week to week and a half a month. I don’t know anyone at a legacy who can do that consistently as a commuter. Living in base you’ll have the option of bidding reserve in the hopes of flying for less as well. It seems in your case you’ll have more QOL advantages going to frontier living in base if you’re not willing/allowed to move the family to a United base.

Very fair and good discussion so far. All good points

I'm looking at F9 & NK even though I'm young enough to go to a legacy and have a solid career there. I think the QOL at the ULCCs are very good, particularly living in base. I value the time off and flexibility over the potential career earnings.

The ULCC is fascinating to me in that I think it has a strong outlook and huge potential upside. The potential limiting factor, in my non-economist rudimentary understanding of the industry, is that while the ULCC model has done well in Europe, Europe doesn't have a Southwest Airlines-like airline. That's not to say NK or F9 won't succeed in their growth plans, but the market is just that much more crowded. I think the disadvantage SWA has is that they're hardly "low cost" to the consumer these days; younger fleets, cheaper labor, and true ancillary revenue generation at the ULCCs gives them a true cost advantage over SWA (for now).

Add to that the rapid growth per se. Retirements are high at the legacies because a lot of the pilots there have a whole lot of longevity. Growing at 15% a (nonCOVID) year, most of the FOs and CAs aren’t even approaching the top of the pay scale yet, while many if not most legacy pilots went over 12 years seniority decades ago.

Even were payscales identical (and they certainly aren’t) the average personnel costs at F9 or NK would be considerably less than at the legacies.

I'll agree that the ULCC's have an enormous cost advantage over the legacies. It's embedded in almost every facet of the operation. How much more are you willing to pay just for a TV and a power outlet on a three hour flight?

However they need to invest in IT infrastructure and their front line employees if they want to have a chance at competing. Better communication and transparency with their customers would go a long way. A clean, reliable product is probably good enough for the vast majority of the flying public.

Great discussion here.

Regarding the F9 upgrade, another consideration should be the excessively steep rate curve at Frontier. Our 12-year captains were the only pilots brought into the pattern when our contract passed. According to APC the United A320 captain at my longevity makes $50.00 more an hour than I do. That is a significant amount of earnings and retirement contributions.

I would not trade rates for a commute, however, and it's a good job if you can avoid having to go to work to endure the bad joke that is trying to operate a normal flight. (Sounds like that's all airlines to some extent.)

Take the United Job. Can’t compare the two. I’m a F9 captain who had a class date at United. In the end I decided to stay here since I’m already in the left seat (~30% seniority) family, mid 40’s and home based. I still think the legacies are far better in term of potential growth, benefits, job security. I wanted to take the job and we shall see when I turn 65 if I made the right decision. I do love my job here and the people whom I fly with. Good luck with what you decide.