Maybe focus on captain’s pay and benefits. Upgrade is already low and coming down further. Seems like QOL is pretty good.

Could someone post the rates for Delta’s AIP and bullet points versus this new Spirit contract? I can’t find the new Delta rates.

Delta rates aren’t out yet. I keep hearing that it’ll take another few weeks before it comes out. Who really knows though

Saw some graphs and tables on this page:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/j...eached-23.html

He's not wrong. Where would you rather be when the music stops? Frontier at least sells their own tickets, pays a livable (if below industry standard) wage, and I can only imagine is still "better than a regional." You can probably have a pretty good career there despite below industry standard everything. I mean, I do at Spirit.

Didn't you boys and girls just voted in a very subpart contact yourselves? Good thing you have a snap up clause.... Or wait, my bad you didn't get that

Why do people keep saying this? How many pilots in the 50+ class size only have the CFI, MEL and ATP written? If I could have went straight to frontier without going to another regional I would have done that. This keeps getting posted like it is becoming the norm, so how many of those 50+ pilots don't have an ATP already?

Because in a market economy people gravitate to the best places they can get. The Big Six just don’t have 5000 better qualified people applying so even they are getting some of these people. Do you think it will not be the case at airlines with a lower payscale and benefits. Your experience was then but this is now. I’d bet your first year pay at a regional wasn’t $100 an hour then like it is now.

That wasn’t a slam at F9, it was an indication of the state of the pilot shortage today.

What I'm getting at is it's not the norm to get hired without your ATP at frontier or any other major and only a select few are able to do that, but pilots here on this forum act like it is.

But without contract improvements it will get worse before it gets better. Look at what regionals are now offering to get 1500hr CFIs in the door:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/piedmont_airlines

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/...l/endeavor_air

Were they offering that when you were at a regional?

For that matter, look at what pilots with the sort of experience level you had in the regionals are getting to stay at the regional? And often with guaranteed flow.

It’s a different world today.

I just started with a regional towards the end of last year. I pay attention to the frontier forum as that's where I'm looking to end up. If I could of went straight to frontier I would've.

When you say it's only going to get worse, what is the experience level of the pilots going to class recently? I'm sure that it's experienced pilots who are getting hired at frontier.

Your goal airline is Frontier?

It is. Base, growth and pay increase potential and pilots I know who like it there are the draw.

Some people enjoy living in base opposed to commuting to a legacy. Not to mention not everyone gets a legacy interview even in this market.

It’s a 2 year deal regardless of the direction it goes. If it weren’t for the merger, we would’ve voted it down. Idk why it’s so hard to understand..

Except that there is also a 4% interest payment due on the loan in addition to the tax due when the terms of the loan are satisfied. Doesn’t sound like a particularly great idea to accept, but to each his own.

I think that was more of a response to one of yours making ridiculous statements. I understand you’re going to be back at the table roughly sane timeframe as us. Frankly I’m a bit more concerned with some of the legacies not fixing QOL provisions such as vac, grid issues, res. Hopefully DL was able to accomplish some of that.

There is no way of knowing if it would have been voted in or not(my guess it would have) even without the merger. Just keep defending the turd you are stuck with....especially in this environment.

The interest is due if you leave otherwise it is also forgiven. The tax due is on the full amount forgiven. So for the 35k recipients the tax due will be on about 39k or so.

AFAIK you're 100% right. There were only a handful of guys (5 or 6?) in my class last year who didn't have their ATP, and they were either well qualified corporate jet captains or the best candidates from Purdue.

Some salty dogs on here have heard that and like to make blanket statements that "we're hiring 1500 hr CFIs." Granted, we're not all that far removed from that, but people should stop acting like we're even attainable for anyone straight out of a Cessna (unless selected through a specific partnership program)

Are you just hurt because DAL didn’t even include you on their wage presentation? Hell, even NK was on it

Be salty as hell but we all know NK will be on the JCBA before Franke pays a dime more.

That would make sense lol and you’re right. I hope the legacies tackle some of that QOL items in their contract.

Of course, but knowing what I know, I’m confident in that it wouldn’t have passed, but no way to know for sure. Either way, it doesn’t matter lol Hope you put your money where your mouth is and get something good and raise the bar.

No, not salty at all. AS was the first to sign, DL clearly leads the way. JB is somewhat in the middle... You guys on the other hand not so much.
We haven't even started to negotiate. I was here last time for it, so i know what we will go through. You better hope the merger goes through, otherwise you are stuck with what you guys signed.
Meanwhile keep defending your new 💩contract.
BTW you and I both agree on nk+jb having JCBA soon. I definitely don't want Indigo comparing your current contract to us as a peer group. I get the fact that both are currently ulcc's but the difference is one is making money while other is not.
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If the merger with JBLU fails, we go right back into full section 6 with NK management, with $40-$50 more an hour as a starting point vs where F9 will be when you open with Franke.

So tell me again why starting from $50 more an hour is a bad thing in section 6 if the merger fails? Or if it doesn’t fail, tell me how $50 more an hour going into a JCBA for more on top of that is a bad thing?

You’re sour grapes, man. Be concerned with the sack of crap management you have to fight with, accept responsibility for your own group, and stop crying because your ULCC partner is gone.

And yup, NK isn’t making money which just shows how ridiculous your position is; NK is not making money and you don’t like our raises? Meanwhile F9 is making money because they are not giving you a raise, too busy dropping $50k checks on CFI pilots.

Sick burn... because it's totally on point...

What responsibility are you talking about? We haven't even started to negotiate yet. I think it's safe to say we are in a much better negotiating position then spirit was.
BTW nothing is wrong with extra $50, but you and i both know you could have gotten more. And just because you can start negotiating s6 doesn't mean it will happen fast.
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It is different this year. If it wasn’t for the 1500hr CFIs and low time regional FO’s with 100-200 hrs 121 SIC, classes would be vacant. Soon those applicants will dry up and F9 growth will be over. The latest TA Spirit signed is aimed to keep them barely afloat until merging with JB. F9 isn’t even making an attempt to get in the game. It looks like a sale is in the near future.

Agreement is they have to open in 90 days if merger fails.

And it isn’t a matter of “if” we could have got more from an airline currently not making money, it was about the opportunity cost of not getting more and getting stuck with our 2018 rates in the JCBA or if the merger failed, in a section 6. 69% of our pilots agreed with the position of our NC and voted yes

But honestly, stop worrying about NK and the agreement we signed, basically a LOA, and worry about your own battle ahead.

Isn’t making an attempt? 3 FO raises in 10 months, hotels, bonuses.

Sale in the near future? We literally would have bought a larger company within the past year.

This site sometimes…

In a recent interview with Aviation Week, when asked about the ATP cadet program, BB said, “Based on the demand we’ve seen, we could do 100% of our hiring through this path. I think we’ve had over 1,000 applications so far.”

Yea…bc BB is well known for telling the truth to the press. They can probably get 1000’s of applicants….how many actually get to F9 class? Not so many.

It's this attitude from the CEO of our company that says it all. Frontier is not currently a destination airline. In a few short years if nothing changes these CFI's we are hiring will upgrade and head to Central America with no route qualification, a green FO sitting next to them, and a couple pages of minimal information in their Ipad to prepare them for landing at an airport that their prior experience has not prepared them for whatsoever. We've already had a near-miss CFIT incident down there by a couple hundred feet - what's next?

You have a point. The preparation/training is not there for some airports where it should be. No special qual. Just look at these couple of pages on the iPad and send it.

I have asked this question in recurrent re S./C.America, answer i got was "everything you need to know is in your jepp charts!"

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Yep. Delta and FedEx have thousands of applications on file. Most of us start them way back with our first hour of jet time as a shiny new FO. Most of those Purdue ATP etc guys are getting 1500 hours and going all over; who knows if the F9 program has a lot of scrutiny or not. Either way, it’s not a secret that they’ve all been in low batches. Our class of nearly 60 had only about 10% from CFI. CEO saying “we have thousands” just sounds like empty words for shareholders who don’t know the difference between applicants and actually CJO (much less coming to class).

From my cheap loan calculator I'm showing $171 a month of interest on a 50k loan at 4.1% interest rate. So taking this loan doesn't have 'no risk.'

Leave after a year? 12 x $171 and you owe the $50,000 back plus $2052 in interest. Want to leave after 2 years? Sure! You now owe Franke $4100 in interest plus have to return the original $50,000. This is a trap.

I agree and in my financial position wouldn’t take it even though I have no intention of leaving. But if somebody is coming to us with a high debt load at a similar or higher interest rate on loans it sure helps. Despite my disagreement with the whole program it’s a nice option that I sure didn’t have when I was scraping by in those early years.

Did somebody actually calculate the take home pay after taxes and fees if one does stay 3 years and I missed it? Too lazy to calculate yet.

Don’t fool yourself. Aside from legacy hiring, WN plans to hire 2100 pilots in 2023. All of these airlines are competing for pilots coming out of the ATP pipeline. Take a look at their pay scales compared to F9. The whole thing is crazy. Even Spirit mgmt sees the writing on the wall. And they only need to keep afloat until JB takes over.

True, but we didn’t. I’m not saying that Indigo is definitely looking for a new suitor for Frontier, but the spirit merger could have been a fork in the road:

If the merger was successful, Frontier would have gotten an extra 2000+ pilots to continue their growth plans and keep things afloat until the legacy hiring craze subsides.

However, that obviously didn’t happen. Now Frontier is faced with massive growth ambitions, a very small supply of new pilots, and legacies hiring up all the young hopefuls they can. To add to the burn, having Frontier, Spirit, or JetBlue on one’s resume to a legacy currently seems to hold about the same weight as having a Ph.d and a few space shuttle landings. So, Frontier is faced with increasing attrition from more than just new hires.

Indigo has already made MASSIVE returns on their Frontier investment. It wouldn’t be totally unbelievable for them to decide it’s time to walk away upon realizing the headwinds that they are about to face. Just like a good stock, sometimes it’s just time to sell when it’s high. Indigo still has slots to hundreds of very desirable A320 series orders. They could offload Frontier, still maintain control of those slots and either sell them to another airline (making a huge profit), or maintain the orders and continue a steady income flow by leasing them.

That said, I know everyone is praying that a legacy buys us. People seem to be jumping for joy over the thought of Frontier being bought, but “being bought” doesn’t mean that we would be flying a legacy or SWA paint job in the future. A sale of Frontier could also simply mean a sale to another investment company. Look at Sun Country, they were “bought”, but I don’t see them flying around with a cute little heart on the side of their planes.