Contract Openers
 

Was it today that we exchanged openers with the company. Has anyone heard anything.

I believe today was supposed to be the day. I say 'supposed' because I'm sure the company didn't have anything productive to do if they even showed up

Meetings on the 25th and 26th.... nothing. I am sure we will hear something in the weekly update. We shall see.

I heard it's all done boys, just waiting on legal. /s

This is a marathon not a sprint. Buckle down and get ready for a long fight.

I will say, it is probably a lot more in depth than I am thinking. But the current contract is already pretty good. I feel like it shouldn't take too long to inset/edit/remove some pieces and be done. But it depends on how bad the company wants to stop attrition. Lets see if they understand how losing people in a revolving door works *cough cough* regionals* cough cough*

Heard it’s United’s’ new contract plus 1 percent and a Hefty bag.

Pretty good? I have to disagree, look how often the company tiptoes around verbiage of the contact and interprets it to their best interest. Major improvements needed in language in most sections of the contract. The contract lagged behind most other carriers previous contracts, now it needs significantly improvement. Buckle your seatbelt and enjoy this ride.

I actually mostly agree. Obviously there's room for improvement! But on the last contract we got some major things knocked out like switching to a fully DC retirement plan and increasing the different reserve options. Insurance costs haven't risen either which is huge as Healthcare prices have sky rocketed.

That being said, we need some improvements in pay, training, scheduling, LTD, Section 19 protections, etc.

This contract fight will be very slow and very painful. I caution anyone who thinks it'll be quick to seriously reset your expectations. Frontier is (still!) filling classes and therefore doesn't see any real reason to kick out a kick ass contract.

If you are on the fence about leaving or doing the wait and see how the new contract looks, I highly recommend you split immediately. You could leave here and be a captain at Delta before we sign a new CBA

The 5 most important things we learned since our last contract (in order of importance):

5. Lots of ancillary items like health insurance costs, short call costs, DC to 18% (like everyone else), etc.
4. Reserve rules. Too many improvements need to list but the big ones are # of times converted from LC to SC, movements to RSV B and E, etc and certainly only having 12 days off per month. Changing #3 below to 5.3 hours min day (to include reserve days) would solve this easily.
3. Average duty period. We definitely learned the hard way on this one. Needs change to either a min day (of 5.3 min) or the trip/duty rig.
2. Pay rates. When prospective candidates are looking for jobs, the #1 thing they look at are pay rates. QoL could be top notch but if rates severely lag, recruiting and retention are difficult. Both the company AND the pilot force need competitive rates - and since it seems the Big 3 are all gonna have just about the same rates (after AA rework and snap up provisions), until we match, this will always be an issue.
1. And singularly most important - Grievance process and consequences. Every contract is only as good as its ability to be enforced. We have all learned the hard way through this and with all the grievances we have, the way the company changes pairing construction philosophy, Section 19 usage, etc, we most certainly need better way to protect ourselves vs. the company not following the contract.

You spelled "Spirit" wrong.

My serious guess is Spirit +1, just like last time. And if this is the case, The Company is gonna want to lock those rates in before Spirit starts the JCBA with JB.

On the flipside, if the JB thing falls through, it will be Frontierit all over again, in which case I predict a multi year fight to ultimately make less than Spirits current, already below industry standard rates.

(if it matters, I work at NK)

Cant be done... Spirit +1 worked when it was hard to get hired at a legacy and a ULCC was also not sucking up 1500hr CFIs.

It has to be close to the legacies or this place will go under VERY quickly.

Thing is, even if they signed a CBA identical to, or even slightly higher than, new legacy deals, they would still see a lot of attrition simply because of the other lifestyle and career opportunities at large airlines with huge networks and wide body fleets. This place genuinely needs to come up with things that will get people to want to be here and stay - things they can’t get somewhere else. Right now we are so far behind it’s not even funny, whether it be pay rates, labor relations, options for fleets, QOL provisions, you name it.

True... I know most are leaving because Denver takes forever to hold and is shrinking. Work rules, pay, contract overall. I am sure a lot would stay with a good new contract.

If the word of MEC management is to be held as gold, nothing will happen until "all" greivances are resolved.

Well, after today's email I think we know what we're in for. Not shocking at all. Management seems hell-bent on making Frontier a regional airline. I planned on spending my career here but now think the difference between this and real career airlines is too great. What a bummer.

LOL, managements inability to recruit and retain pilots due to a lack of competitive work rules and compensation is the reason for poor coverage and cancellations, but yeah, let's blame the fact that the company cannot lock us into our awarded PBS schedules in their entirity. Clowns.

I want to know what they mean by "when the PAF fails". Has there ever been a time when a PAF trip wasn't picked up within a minute of it being dropped?

I’ll guess that’s a setup for trying to gain back the ability to JA.

Be happy they came to the table with anything, its a good sign. Negotiating 101 is to not give it all away quick and see what the other side will take. They came to the table with their offers and openers which is actually way better than last time. (they just didnt show up and had nothing ready)

I am sure we will have something within 12-18 months, but it won't be any quicker. I came here as a destination as well and we will see what happens. Worst comes to worst, ill eat the losses and move to the angry triangle or just go corporate.

They showed up because if they didn’t they would be negotiating in bad faith, exact same thing they did last time, 12-18 months?? …it’s not just a river in egypt!

I agree with what you’ve outlined in the first few sentences but as to what the company is looking to accomplish with that statement. They’re looking to either tie us to a res grid or adjust the grid numbers. This isn’t hard to figure out. They want all the worst parts of other agreements and we want the best.

Be happy they came with anything? Haha. Ok.

Let’s talk in 12 months. They don’t want a deal. If they did they wouldn’t be talking about any concessions. Zero.

Maybe by then ZJX will be fully staffed and the business model will be viable.

When is the strike vote?

In five years when we don’t have a contract. Were you expecting one earlier than that?

A strike authorization vote is different than actually going on strike. I mean, probably 2 or so years before we vote on that.

I feel like this will be a very frustrating time frame. We know the company isn't going to negotiate in good faith and do all their shady stuff, but there is a prescribed time line for everything. We still have 6 months before we can even get a national mediator. Also, remember, it's just a mediator, not an arbitrator. They can't decide squat, only recommend and suggest.

Buckle up kids

Take a look at what Allegiant is doing to their pilot group. Making less than regionals and still no agreement. I expect the same.

Based on the contract comparison put out by ALPA; Frontier Pilots are last in almost every single metric when compared to the industry. LAST!

After the first week of negotiations our VP of flight operations puts out a video on how the company wants concessions on the one or two work rules that make this place bearable to work. This management is a joke.

I see two options at this point. Sharpen your pitchforks or sharpen your pencil and start filling out applications. If you weren’t here for last round of negotiations, dig in it’s going to be a long, painful, ugly ride.

If you took the $50,000 bonus hopefully you didn’t spend it. If you did; UAL, AAL, DAL 2nd year rates are about $50 more per hour so you will break even pretty darn quickly. RUN!

If I may….the first thing I did as soon as I saw the email with the video link was to delete it. Union busting 101…do not watch those videos, they are designed to divide and conquer the pilot group.
Let the union speak for us and let the union inform us.

I don't think they can wait... Literally cannot afford it. 30% of our seniority list is on probation? I would imagine back in 2017, only maybe 5% was on probation.

If there is a subpar contract or offer, more will leave. The airline will go under with everyone bailing.

It is standard practice in negotiating to open with a poor offer and see what the other side will meet on. I couldn't imagine a company opening with all the golden geese right off the bat without at least trying for something less before hand.

I hope you’re right….but this right here is one of the reasons I left. Being in my late 30’s I have a decent amount of time left but not enough time to neglect the wave currently going on at legacies. Yeah I lost some QOL for the time being but will be living in base by Oct and upgrading in that base in 2.5-3.5 years. More like 1.5-2 years from now if I felt like commuting. I saw Frontier was able to fill classes when I was still there and it began to make me nervous about how drawn out this could potentially get. The people who were around for last negotiations all claimed it took years then and those pay rates were a joke then so no reason to believe it won’t happen again. I honestly can’t believe given the state of things management initially opens up hinting at concessions on things that ultimately keep Frontier separate from legacies and ultimately keep a lot of people around. I had a choice to make,,jump on the seniority train now while it’s moving or give Frontier years of my life hoping it becomes something it may not.

I think in BL's mind, the 30% on probation are locked down for 3 years at Frontier.

You and I know they will leave but, I don't think that they think the same way.

I am definitely curious how many have taken and paid back the 50k to move on so far.

The sooner everyone on both sides accept that this is not a "negotiation", but rather a demand for an acceptable contract with improvements for the pilot group in all aspects, the sooner we can move forward with something meaningful.

Allegiant guys have been saying the same thing. How’s it working out over there?

BF recently said the good thing with all the airbuses indigo has on order is that they’re flexible with how they choose to allocate them… ie all the airbuses we have on order that were touted to us in our interview are by no means a guarantee. anyone expecting a quick contract because all the planes we are planned to get are naive and choosing to believe a comfortable fantasy rather the ugly truth of a long and ugly contract process

The undeniable truth is that if you stay at Frontier you will not make as much money as if you leave, even if you are a captain.. The gains in soft money in the legacy contracts are huge, and we have BL - the least interesting man in the world - trying to claw back what little we have. This is contract negotiation idiocy is going to go on again in 5 years after the new contract is in place - rinse, repeat. In the meantime management is turning Frontier into a regional airline. They don't care about retaining pilots with experience and I am starting the believe that they would love for pilots on the 12 year pay scale to take a hike. Very senior captains are leaving, you will be amazed....

Again
regardless of seat ……. 45 or under? RUN!

people bailing....

interesting to see how the BB plans to operate all the newly-arriving airplanes being added to the fleet if he has no crews to fly them

30% of the seniority list on probation, losing 1.2 people a day, constantly fluctuating around 2000 pilots... gonna be interesting.

The amount of captains leaving for legacies truly define what this place has become. How can pilot recruiting put a straight face on as they parade around spewing false hope.

I am a 2016 hire and I was here for the last round of negotiations. I remember how contentious it got. I have no misconceptions that this round will go any smoother.

Since we signed our last CBA though I thought this was my career airline. I live in base and enjoy an overall nice QOL.

IF all of the deliveries show up as advertised then, yes the seniority gains look very promising. But I can’t shake the gnawing feeling that F9’s trajectory is to fully embrace the regional airline management style. F9’s management has maybe the most hostile posturing of any current airline in the US.

It has finally reached the point for me though that I have applied at the legacy carriers. This management group makes me think it’s too risky for my future to stay and try and ride out the growth in seniority. Leaving to start at the bottom of a legacy feels like the safer long term move.

There are so many “death by a thousand cuts” anecdotes on these forums that are very accurate that have inched me closer and closer to applying elsewhere. However the the final straw for me was BL’s video last week talking about concessionary language for our pilot group. In an unprecedented hiring wave for pilots, where we’ve never seen such strong contractual gains as an industry, this horse’s arrse has the nerve to talk directly to the pilot group and tell us that he needs concessionary language so that “override pay rewards more block time flown”.

Sorry for the long winded post but I’ve reached the point where the juice is no longer worth the squeeze. I never thought I’d reach this point. Driving to work, enjoying a flexible schedule (which the company wants to reduce flexibility), and trying to capitalize on soft pay provisions in our CBA so that I might earn CLOSE to what my legacy peers earn is too risky for me to stay. If I stay here and this place fully becomes a ULCC “regional” I will have missed my opportunity elsewhere.

Coming to F9 from a regional airline or in lieu of a regional makes sense. I would just encourage people not to get too comfortable while you’re here like I did. I’ve already missed out on huge seniority gains by staying here hoping this place would become something it’s not.

PS this switch from Jeppesen to Lido charts feels like icing on the cake.