Thanks for the post. I should say that I only check LAS premium so not sure what’s happening elsewhere.

The why is simple, money. The total cost to complete the flight v cancel is what you need to remember. You have to pay crew, do you have gate at destination? Will the plane be out of mtx scheduled location? Will crew need hotels, and at what cost? Fuel cost at destination and is there a need for the plane for a return flight, v keeping plane at canceled location to operate a different flight "ontime"? All cost against profit from operating the flight with 50 bags and full load made up of "gowild" or $29 fares? Easier and ofter cheaper to just refund the tickets and tell folks...oh sorry.

This is not a “sky is falling” post. While I am concerned about what’s going on, I am realizing that Frontier is not alone in its challenges. Here are flights over the last couple of weeks that were in the premium folder for several hours and then either A) cancelled, or B) were significantly delayed because no Captains picked them up.

Flight #/ City pairs / date / -Domicile the premium was posted…


1574 ATL-ORD 8/6 -ATL

80 ORD-PUJ 8/6



155 PHL-ATL 8/12 -PHL

155 ATL-CUN 8/12



457 ATL-DEN 8/12 -ATL

456 DEN-ATL 8/12



2947 PHX-SAN 8/13 (12 hr delay) -PHX

2828 SAN-ATL 8/13 (12 hr delay)



2439 ATL-CLE 8/14 (11 hr delay) -ATL

2439 CLE-SFO 8/14 ??



1574 ATL-ORD 8/16 (12 hour delay) -ATL

1569 ORD-ATL 8/16 (12 hour delay)



2382 ATL-PHL 8/18 -ATL

2381 PHL-ATL 8/18



1173 PHL-MCO 8/19 -PHL

521 PHL-DEN 8/19 (6 hour delay) -PHL

If it doesn’t say it was delayed, the flight was cancelled.

As a CA, I will mention that the issue isn't the city pair as much as it is WHEN it's put into PAF.

I'm not so sure I agree.

First of all, we ALL mention these $29 tickets. Fact is, if you went to flyfrontier.com right now, there might be ONE or TWO of those available - usually on routes that are notoriously empty. Many of the trips are lower cost (around $80-120) but only w/ Discount Den. The tickets are cheaper but I doubt the plane has greater than 50% of the people who are on a gowild pass or got some really low ticket price. We already know we get our $ from baggage fees and drinks. The ticket is just a way to get them on the plane...

Second, the cost of labor really isn't that much higher. PAF trips - even if it's for the entire crew of pilots and FAs - is not really that much more expensive. We operate about 17,000 departures per month. If we had 170 trips that ended up being Premium (that's a PAF trip at each base every other day), that's only 1% that the company is paying 50% or more. It's amazing to me how we as pilots don't realize how cheap we really are. And as Scott Kirby mentioned, pilot salaries are a pass through and are paid for by the consumer. In our case, Delta rates (even after the snap up) would equate to probably about a $10-15 increase in ticket price. It really is that simple.

Third, the costs of cancelling a flight due to crew availability is MUCH more costly than paying a couple of crew members. Refunds are a pain (issuing checks, etc.). Consumers are becoming more knowledgeable about their rights and what the NTSB mentions in terms of compensation for tarmac delays, over booking, cancellations, etc.

But lastly, as a pilot, it's not my job to determine how the company makes its money. That's Barry and Brad's job. And, lately, they haven't been doing all that well. We make money but ALL airlines are. Delta posted 16% margin and we posted 9%? Stock holders aren't dumb - they want better.

And so do I.

This.

CS has this new habit of expending all reserves, then putting stuff into the PAF (probably at BLs request, since they want more block for premium credit) and they will use ALL of the C or D reserves, then throw a 11pm departure into premium for NO extra incentive at 9:30pm and expect people to pick it up.

There would be no issue with trip coverage if they just used the PAF PRIOR to using all of the reserves and gave a reasonable amount of incentive and time before hand so they could save reserves for when they needed those quick call outs.

Rarely do I check OT or PAF, usually only when my friends (subscribe to alerts) are abuzz about some bonkers trip. Two days paying 20-30 before the 150%. Sometimes when looking at pairings day by day, I’ll see an INC in the mix. Sometimes it’s pretty nice (the other day, PHX LAS turn incentivized to 8:00). Others; it’s like a 5:30 turn and they add 30 min of incentive.

I used to scratch my head wondering why, but it makes sense to me now. Over Adequately-staffed domicile has almost all the straight OT picked up, usually as soon as it’s dropped. I even see people pick up NTR (and humorously try to swap it on the trade board).

“Why waste $$$ pay lot INC, when few INC do trick?”