We need to “jump to the chase” and request mediation……… have a strike vote……
move the process along

isn't the “CONCESSION STAND CLOSED”….?

^^^^^^^^ this is what BB is counting on.

Just my opinion, I respect a lot of the awesome dues on these threads. This is me speaking to nobody, out-loud in the shower. This is not directed to anyone in particular.

With that said:

I am amused when people say "more should leave, this helps us get a contract." I say, no, it does not. There are no data points, no metrics, nothing, at the current time, nor in prior airline-history, where "Pilots resigning" triggered (triggered partially or completely, kinda sort of, ANYTHING) management in place to agree, either mostly, or entirely, to the Pilot's desires in a new contract. None.

"It is different now. People are leaving at a rate seen never in history." Again, show me the data. Show me the investor calls (verbal comments), show me the company powerpoints, show me SOMETHING from management, etc that "attrition is important" and "we [management] need to address this"

Pilots resign because (for whatever reason) the company and they (the pilot) are no longer compatible. Money, QOL, moral/self-identity, etc....whatever, pilots rarely leave a company over "pay alone." Indeed the hot cheerleader down the street finally said yes, lets go on a date. And they dump the current, slightly uglier girlfriend. But if the guy is looking, something is up with the relationship. And that is what we have here.

A broken relationship between management and labor. Well, management and reality. No rampers, baggage sizer scandals, gate agents hiding from passengers, forward lavs with urine all over the floor, AFTER the cleaners go home (what "company employee" is supervising the cleaner contract? oh wait, sorry, dumb question).

Wall Street is asking the same questions. The stock has crashed since the beginning of the year. Sub $5? really? A major ULCC, dominant player (we were told) ? I guess ATC, oil prices, "lazy work from home zoomers" etc are to blame. It is all their fault. Meanwhile Big-3 is FULL, and bouncing back post-COVID. Money being spent on luxurious lounges and new terminals. "Evil American" that for reasons unknown to me, everyone hates at Frontier, is expanding terminals and rumored to be getting even more XLR's than original order. More 787s coming. Delta and UAL doing well. FULL flights.

the romance is over for many. A "new contract" will probably not change that. And no, we are not going to get Delta Airbus pay. Sorry boys. We will get a JetBlue/Southwest-ish narrow body rate, IF the union can pull it off. If Barry says the word "cut costs" again in another investor presentation I am going to vomit.

My opinion, subject to being wrong and full of crap

Sounds like what you are suggesting is we need a management change....

I could only imagine how well we could do if we had people who care about the product we sell to people, not just the ticket price and bare bones to the point where we aren't even at the bones anymore, we are in the marrow with a CEO that wants to just grind it to dust apparently.

There are very few industries where profit is its only reason for existence. There’s always some underlying passion for the service provided or the product being manufactured. And of course they want to make money.

There is a minimum, implied service when you buy an airline ticket.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in the F9 business model.

“Low fares done right for stake holders.”

It should be

“Low fares done right for the passengers.”

It’s not sustainable. Getting your passengers to their destination alive is simply not enough. Not even at our “rock bottom” prices. Customer service, on time performance and gratitude for handing over their money must be implied in the ticket sale. Since it isn’t part of the ticket sale at F9, our stock price is $4.69. It’s a direct reflection of consumer confidence in our product.

Based on the NC update today it is clear the company has 0 desire to negotiate in good faith. In fact, they are asking for concessions in nearly every single section and refusing to agree on anything. What if the union just took the company’s pile of garbage concessionary contract and pushed it to the pilot. Once it was voted down by 100% of membership we could move along from these games and the company could actually start negotiating in good faith knowing that the pilots have 0 desire for the crap they are offering.

I know it sounds crazy but sitting here for 5 years hearing about how the company wants concessions while every other major pilot makes $80-100 more an hour than we do sounds even more crazy.

If we push the pilots a crap contract and vote it down immediately would it speed this railway labor dance up? We all know playing by the rules is going to take years and years.

[QUOTE=Dragonslayer69;370045 It’s a direct reflection of consumer confidence in our product.[/QUOTE]
It’s not the product. This is strictly the market’s confidence in our management, who obviously is doing a 💩 job.

Fact!!! 😂
Don’t ride Frontier if you actually want to get to work!!!

NOTHING speeds up the RLA Section 6 dance unless the company wants to actually make a deal. Unfortunately I have a feeling that this will be as long of a negotiation as the last contract.

Indigo’s method of “negotiation” is tried and true.
See you on the picket line 🍻

The company is only interested in concessions…….
they assign NO value to the pilot group or the CBA
move this thing along…… strike vote…

I get the feeling - I truly do but a mediator won’t touch a negotiation until the remaining items can be counted on one hand.
A strike vote early in the process may rally the pilots but it will have no teeth and be a wasted opportunity IMO anyways.

No way around it - this is going to take awhile unfortunately.

well….. if the company will NOT discuss anything (“any discussion will not achieve progress”) and continues to ask for concessions then ??????

Did Avelo just raise their pilot pay? Any details?

Someone posted it on the Facebook group

Looks like 12th year CA is $298
1st year FO $131 and up to $200 for 12th year FO

Good news for us as Frontier will look to the low pay airlines to be our "peer group"

If you were at F9 during the last contract then you know the game plan. If not then ask somebody that was.

You guys JUST passed openers……it’s going to be awhile.

They also have over 75hrs or flying on days off at 125%.......

No contract, no union, company can increase or decrease at any time, so keep that in mind.

I voted NO…….

We all know. That's not what he's talking about.

“ While the company is engaging to a limited degree in lower-level areas, their willingness to meaningfully bargain over the cornerstone issues important to Frontier pilots has been absent. Based on the company’s lack of commitment to this point, it is hard to see how a contract can be completed in a timely manner.”

So, what does this mean exactly? Does it mean don’t expect anything in the new contract? Does it mean don’t expect a new contract? Why so cryptic?

I don't know but ALPA is really starting to bother me. I'd call my rep but they are too busy fighting or trying to get their 150 credit.

It sounds like they don't know when we will get a new one, but their Jan estimate is probably off.

I am willing to bet there is definitely some truth in both sides (BLs vids and the negotiating emails). I am sure they want to see what happens over the next 5 months before negotiating anything to do with pay and stuff.

One thing is for sure, no one ever though this would be done in 6 months.

It just means be patient. And go to United to exert as much pressure on the company as possible

Joining a 15,000 pilot seniority list at the bottom is not great idea at this time IMO.

It means exactly what they said I don’t see it as cryptic. The company has no intention of getting a deal done until they need it done yesterday. In the meantime they will continue to drag their feet and go after low hanging fruit to make it look like they’re negotiating in good faith. We won’t get a deal done until the training department can’t pump enough people to cover the attrition. I say end of 2024 the company gets more serious if hiring is still going strong at the legacies.

The company has already decided the useful life of an FO is three years. (Bonus terms) And with the steady flow of pilots from the cadet program I suspect they will have what they need for a good while.

See, I dont agree with this. This doesn't work. You won't have enough captains at that point. I also never heard this, so I am curious where it came from. (I heard BL at one point?)

I would guess the three year mark is hoping they upgrade by then and have more of a reason to stay. Or perhaps that’s when they feel they’ve gotten their training costs out of them though I would have guessed it was within a year. No facts to back either guess.

Pilot 15001 is in a good spot if UA’s projected numbers of 26000 comes to fruition.
Every class they run is approximately 70+ numbers of seniority if you look at it from the other point of view.
But then again I don’t read tea leaves.

Yeah. Their projected numbers are 26,000 until it’s not. I was supposed to be under 50% seniority company wide by now according to the Koolaid being served when I got hired at F9. Total pilots have been hovering around 2,000 for a year. Very slow growth.

I find it funny that the company wants to gut our trade/drop/swap because the "PAF fails" and they claim they are unable to cover trips... yet there are multiple trips this morning that have been sitting there for hours, all with report times in a few hours. It is the same when covering trips after aggressive closes, they sit on trips until 8pm when it's too late to use long calls and it is less likely they'll get picked up in PAF.

I don't care how long the contract takes, I don't want to be subject to the consequences of the company's inability to do simple things like cover OT. That said, ALPA needs to push for full retro if it is that clear to them that a contract won't come in a reasonable timeframe.

F9's inability to grow pilots was easily predictable a couple of years ago. I stated back then that once the regionals were dead (they are), the ULCCs would be drained of pilots by the legacies. I am actually surprised that F9's seniority list hasn't started shrinking yet - that should happen in the not too distant future, just like it did at the regionals.
Your seniority at F9 may stay the same, but it's likely that you'll see your seniority move backward in the future.

It’s getting worse and will only get worse. Our pilots that left 6 months ago are already upgrading at the legacies. We have too many CFIs in the pipeline that will be coming and being able to maintain a steady stream of candidates to fill the companies attrition based vacancies. There is no growth just stagnation. People saying “Full retro”. What airline has ever received that? Delta rates? You honestly believe we will get that? Keeping PAF? Now with the recession looming and bad financials, we won’t see anything for years, just like before during Republic days.

That's why the company sent the FOs the survey to find out where everyone stands on 121 time for upgrade. It will definitely become an issue as we get airplanes and the seniority list has not grown at all in the last year. They will probably have to sell our slots/options/deliveries or park brand new airplanes. Attrition is pretty much equal to our hiring numbers and there is no interest in giving us a contract in a timely manner.

So how is all of this supposed to come together to be the "fastest growing airline"? Nothing makes sense and nobody on the line seems to know what is going on or what the plan is here...

Our cancellation rate is still less than 3%. How far does that have to go, might be your first indicator.

They will give up delivery slots and blame it on everything but themselves. Why expand the fleet if you have no one to fly them? Only makes sense to cancel deliveries.

50% is unrealistic in a two year span for anything other than a startup. Maybe 50% FO? That seems somewhat realistic. Has your RS% not grown due to attrition?

The highest number we had Oct 2022 was 1900 vs 2108 this month. 10% growth in the last year. 1668 to 1900 the year prior. 12% from Oct 21-Oct 22. While there was a definite lul from Jan- June it’s back to growth mode minus attrition.

While attrition is bad I’m not too upset yet as from previous history it will probably help us light a fire under managements butt to get forward progress on a contract. Failure to grow this airline as planned will suck a lot worse for management than it will us especially if other airlines are profiting. I would surmise their jobs depend upon it.

“””Failure to grow this airline as planned will suck a lot worse for management than it will us especially if other airlines are profiting. I would surmise their jobs depend upon it.”””

I agree with this a hundred percent.

I totally disagree.

BB and BL aren’t idiots. They could make the offer whenever they want and all would be better. The art is in NOT making it but acting like it’s right around the corner. This airline will never offer industry standard rates. Customer service will not be deemed “necessary” due to industry pressures. The whole point is to keep EVERYTHING cheap - even if it would make more $ otherwise. It’s principalities Smokey!

The ONLY way to get ALL of the conditions and pay up to par is via a strike. Do we have the balls to do it? Doubtful honestly. The senior are too far/content/close to retirement and the junior are more likely to get as much as they can before heading out the door. The middle (4-9 yrs seniority) are affectively screwed.

We do have ONE thing in our favor. Industry has spoken. We are LAST in the contract negotiations order. By then, SW, JB/NK and all the rest will be paying what the Big 3 have all decided upon. The “negotiation” for compensation isn’t even needed - it’s industry standard or we shrink into oblivion. You would think that even our union can’t F this up. But, these are the same dudes as last time. I’m sure the NC will come up with less and the LEC/MEC will vote it in and put on the advocating dog and pony. So, in the end, it will take a strike. Not just a strike vote. Not a 30 day cooling off but an ACTUAL days/weeks of no income, PO’d off passengers and pressure from outside forces. I want to strike just to see what might happen. Just to see what is possible. Just to see how much Indigo will do to get the pay carousel back up and running.

Do we dare? Do we have the stomach? Are we a unified pilot base?

I agree with this except that I don't think it's the pilots that won't strike, rather the rla/mb will never allow it. If SWA wasn't allowed to strike this year, I'm not sure who ever will be released to.