Some perspective on what we do
 

We all know contracts are not only good/bad by pay rates, but also by the "compensation" in other areas such as scheduling, vacation, retirement, etc.

But some perspective on what we do compared to our peers at legacies and other majors that it seems not many people know (I know you probably know, but a lot of pilots dont bother to look) just how many lives we have in our hands on a daily basis compared to other pilots. Some younger and more new/junior pilots I talk to seem to not grasp just how much they are doing at work and think they are less than a legacy pilot because "they might be stuck at a ULCC for the rest of their career" like they are missing something.

Our aircraft, A320 and A321neo/ceo, we carry 186 (soon to be 182 with those new seats?) and 240/230 (236/226) respectively. The recent CBAs by other airlines, all have increasing pay based on seating of aircraft, this is evident by their various pay rates for their 320, 321, 321neo, 220-100/300, etc.

Delta's 12 year CA on the Airbus A320 will soon make 388/hr in 2026. Their 2nd year FO will make 192/hr. Their 321neo will pay 12 year CA 404/hr and 2nd year FO 199/hr. Their Airbus A330 12 year CAs will get 484/hr and their 2nd year FO will be at 239/hr.

We currently are capped out making 270/hr as CA and our 2nd year FOs make 118/hr.

Delta carries 157 pax in their A320. We carry 186. Delta carries 194 in their A321neo and we carry 240. Delta's A330-200 carries 223 pax. Their longboi 757s (300s) carry 234 pax (same pay as their 321Neo), Their 767-300 carries 226 and their 767-400 carries 238.

You carry more passengers than MOST of those widebodies that you see, so just think about that when we see numbers for a new contract or when you consider your "worth as a pilot" since that seems to be something people at majors/ULCCs/LCCs worry about. (oh yeah, and we do more with less than other airlines that I know of)

Couldn't agree more.

The fact that F9 pilots don’t realize how many paxs are on their airplanes is half the reason they’re behind.

You bring up some good points - our pay does seem to be tied to capacity but you must also look at revenue generation. Many WBs are literally carrying tons of cargo for big bucks and premium international seats go for mutiple thousands of dollars. So if you just look at WB seats it might not be telling the whole picture. With that said you guys should definitely shoot to match the legacy NB aircraft on pay rates.

Scoop

How many people we carry is irrelevant. If I am flying A321 compensate me as one.

Guys at AA don't get paid less flying the A321T just because it has less seats.

When it comes to unions negotiating on pay for airframe it really comes down to how much liability you have in your hands.

more seats = more responsibility.

Barry likes to say the airlines are a commodoty business, I agree... So are pilots.

I ageee. Youre not gonna hear an argument from me.

I support your want for better pay rates. Having said that, you should not compare seats (sorry). AA flew a 321 transcon with 102 seats. You really can't compare that to a Frontier A317 (A318 was 130? seats). Those 10 first class seats and 20 business seats took twice the space of the 72 seats in the back. I don't think AA did that because they dislike making money (I know, hard to believe with their financials, but still). And any WB will carry a lot of cargo as well as premium pax.
If you want to get paid based on how much you make per person, become a doctor. Southwest pilots make the best NB pay in the industry. They fly the same sized/smaller airframe as you do. All NB pilots make more than F9 NB pilots.That is the argument for better pay.

I agree with the first post pay comments

hourly Big-3 FO pay is like $5-10 bucks below Year 3 Frontier Captain Pay

let that sink in boys

when the majors re-up their contacts circa 2028, Barry will have "just signed" the new pay rates

SW "makes the most NB pay" because they fly more. Do you want 4 legs a day in a 1967 cockpit? No thanks. Their pay structure is somewhat different. The number of Frontier pilots who have bailed for SW is minimal to non-exsistent, maybe some SW Kool Aid drinkers or whose wives were SW FA's. etc

Way to take things the wrong way! I mentioned SW pay because you should use it for pay comparison. Just like it make no sense to look at DL WB pay, it does not make sense to say SWA pilots deserve more because they work in an old cockpit. No, you didn't say that directly, but saying nobody is leaving F9 to get almost twice as much at SWA is almost as bad.
FYI, average is 2.5 legs per day, 14 duty days per month for line holders at SWA. That is 35 legs per month on average (and around 700 block per year). How many legs does the average F9 pilot fly per month? I don't work for SWA, but I sure as what enjoy the benefits of their "somewhat different pay structure" for the household.

uh, what ?

What of that is that hard for you to understand?

ummm, wat?

Lets talk “perspective.”

We like to think we are talking apples to apples by comparing us to legacies because we fly the same airplane they do. Then, we boast that our aircraft have more seats than the legacy variant of the Airbus. So, we definitely should be paid the same. Heck… we should get more!!!

Just a quick google reveals Delta moves 200M people annually.

Using numbers here on APC profiles, 737’s and A319’s/320/321’s make up 56% of the Delta fleet.

56% of 200M is 112M people moved annually by Delta narrow body pilots.

Frontier moves 30.2M people annually. That’s just 27% of what Delta does.

NOW, BEFORE ANYONE GOES BALLISTIC ON MY MATH BEING TOO LINEAR. I GET IT, BUT I WASN’T GONNA DIG AROUND TO FIND OUT EXACTLY HOW MANY FLIGHTS ANNUALLY THEIR NB FLEETS MAKE.

The point is: It matters that Delta has far more opportunities (flights per day) to unalive people than F9. They move way more people than we do and they do it in aircraft with less seats than ours.

This is what a bean counter sees when it comes to compensation. Not how many seats on an airplane.

They also have more aircraft and more pilots.

DAL's 117 rules are the same as ours.

The requirement to not "unalive" ourselves, our crew, and our passengers is equivalent.

Pax in seats varies and really shouldn't matter. Total pax moved shouldn't matter.

What's consequential is the market for a bus pilot and the comparison posted by our MEC clearly shows we're far below the standard.

Our pay should mirror the market.

I agree 100%. We should get the going rate for an Airbus pilot. It shouldn’t matter who we are flying for. A start valve costs the same whether you put it in an airplane with a weasel on the tail or a red delta on the tail. Pilots should be no different.

The reality though, is that it does matter.

it doesn’t matter accurately.


southwest is a low cost carrier.

we are a low cost carrier.


Southwest is the highest paid NB pilots.

Full stop. We should be paid same or more. We have a lower CASM. They should increase RASM. But we should at least make the going rate for airbus pilots.


if being a LCC for frontier means making less the business is unsustainable and a plight to the industry and we should go out of business.


if you’re saying we deserve less. Let’s just quit and go to the bottom of a decent carrier.


you’re worth what you negotiate. Get better at negotiating for your value. Because this whole idea we deserve less is embarrassing for you. When you consider Southwest makes the most doing the same job as a legacy as a low cost carrier.

MRA or bust. We deserve it.

My honest advice man is to get hired by a legacy. It stings to hear but F9 is never going to get within striking distance of pay and QOL of a legacy. I want them to because they bring down the average when contract negotiations roll around. But it ain’t gonna happen.

I worked at F9 for 6 years. I was around 50% seniority at the entire airline, making left seat pay for the first time in my life, driving to work, life was good. It was really tough to give up. I got hired in 2016 under the pre contract rates. We didn’t even have DC yet for retirement, just the 50% match up to 10% of your income.

When I would fly with captains and tell them Delta was shooting for 25% DC for C2019, way, WAY too many of the captains said something to the effect of: “well if you want that then go to Delta”. Despite their defeatist attitude, F9 did get defined contribution in the contract, albeit lagging the percentages of the legacies.

My point is that there are WAY too many pilots there that believe Frontier is the WalMart of the skies (a direct quote from several) and believe they should be treated as such. On the bottom end are new pilots who want to get their time and get out. The pilot group as a whole is never going to stand up for themselves and get the contract they deserve.

I considered making Frontier the last stop of my career. For years actually, especially once I upgraded and covid hit. But it was the conversations with so many pilots that finally kicked me out the door. I realized we were never getting legacy rates and QOL. There are lots of reasons why, including economic forces beyond the pilots’ control. But I couldn’t lie to myself anymore and say the pilot group wasn’t at least partially responsible.

cool story bro. 10,700 pilots of the 17,000 were hired at each legacy. Average age of 41-46. So 19-24 years of being an FO since hiring normalized. But thanks for the unsolicited advice. You clearly don’t understand collective bargaining or career earnings Research. Enjoy your career.

so in your analogy is Southwest considered Target? How about Delta? Maybe they’re Wholefoods!

give me a break dude. Airlines change and so do management groups… look at Southwest, perfect example. Don’t go saying what any airline career expectations are going to be because no one knows. You clearly are biased in having it work out and having some great seniority progression. Which is fine, but just realize everyone has reasons for making their life choices… AND fighting to compensated like a professional should not a taboo subject.

Virtually nothing that's been said the last 2 pages matters or means anything.

You can make all the analogies you like, you can compare us to anyone, but there's only one thing that matters. The NC is going to try their best to get us the best deal they can and then you get to his vote on it.

Everyone will have their reasons, and everyone will have their vote. That's it. The NC, ALPA, the NMB and the company will eventually come to a deal. It'll likely be disappointing and it'll likely get voted in.

Not only about contracts, but also about new FOs who somehow think they are inferior for being at a ULCC.... which isn't the case.

PS- No Snap up = No Vote.

Please stop this nonsense no snap up = no vote crap, we aren’t going to get that we aren’t a legacy, I believe we should vote yes on legacy rates with good work rules. The snap up is a straight pipe dream.

Neither is JetBlue.

No snap up is a no vote for me. It could be Legacy 321 rates within a certain percentage etc. but def a no vote. We’ve given the farm away with the no extra pay clause for 321s and 50
extra pax. On a 4 leg day that’s an extra hour of sit time we’re not getting paid for. Keep smiling and handing out the trading cards guys. 🤦‍♂️

Management is only interested in a M&A right now. When that happens we will get a contract.

Man, lots of differing opinions on here. Some are spot on (like immediately below) and some just cringe worthy - like the one below that.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. EVERY SINGLE PILOT UNION GROUP since the RLA has had the opportunity to turn down a pay proposal. It all depends on what you collectively decide to accept.

Having mentioned that, there are still some that believe there are aspects/items which can't be achieved or obtained. This is ludicrous speak to me. It's basically a display that mgt has done their job well of not only convincing people to accept less, but to also not even ask for fair compensation. Busdriver2000 - I hope you are either not at F9 or don't get to vote.

Make no mistake fellow pilots. YOU DESERVE THE SAME IF NOT BETTER COMPENSATION as every other US domestic flyer. You deserve the snap up clause. You deserve 5 weeks of vacation and 18 hr long call, and increased pay for converting to short call, and cheaper medical, and better LTD and 18% 401k (and whole lot more sh!t.). In fact, the OTHER AIRLINES are hoping that we get a higher rate so that THEY SNAP UP TOO. Pay rates should be a game of leap frog (just like NFL contracts for superstars). Not too long ago, Sun Country got Delta rates - it can be done.

So, keep in mind, the # of seats, the destinations nor the aircraft matter. In the history of airlines, pilots have never picked their routes, determined the type of aircaft they fly or its age, capabilities or limitations nor have they determined what price to charge the customer. We are a ULCC simply because the owner decided it. And he/they can change that at anytime. Honestly, I couldn't care less how much we charge, where we go or who we carry if you pay me the same as everyone else. There is now an industry standard for A321 pay rates. The ONLY way I fly for $0.01 less is if there are more YES votes to cancel out my NO.

Sorry. I have to ask. Why do regional pilots make so much less than a legacy? Do their unions suck? Do their pilots not know how to vote “no?”

Because their mainline counterparts have supported that system for decades, by not integrating regional pilots into their seniority lists and selling out scope, allowing a large chunk of low wage pilots to subsidize their much larger salaries. At ExpressJet almost 90 percent voted NO to a contract with concessions in every section. Within two years Skywest, with Delta and United’s help killed ExpressJet/ASA.

Several reasons:

Because regionals don't sell their own tickets - they are beholden to their mainline partner for pay for specific routes. The fly less people. They "traditionally" had less experienced pilots.

And to be honest, the pay difference isn't as great as it used to be. ExpressJet (no longer in business) had a GREAT contract back in the day...

You do realize a WB FO on 5th year pay makes $282/hr (plus international override) right. (Yr 12 $317) plus 17% DC going to 18% in Jan. So 19-24 years as an FO sounds a little better compared to your 12 year CA rate. And just a little history. The only time we've had 19-24 yr FOs was was during the lost decade. Barring LEPF getting their way and the mandatory retirement age going to 70 or higher, it's extremely unlikely. We had 3 year pilots getting CA back in the mid 90's much like today. But the other difference is we're just getting to our peak retirement decade. For the next 10 years UAL is retiring 500-700 pilots per year. Unlike a company with a single gauge aircraft, upgrades aren't linear. We have many FO's who go to the WB and park out there for 25 yrs until the "jump the trashcan" because of the lifestyle and pay allowing those with 4-5 years to upgrade on a NB to get that 4th stripe.

It's nice to have choices.

That being said, I'm truly hoping you guys get an amazing contract that gets parody (or better) with the big 4 NB rates. Our contract is amendable in a few years and it will give us a springboard.

False, we will always make less than the legacy pilots because they make more money for their companies. It’s like this in so many industries so I don’t understand why so many people are pressed about it. Chefs at higher end restaurants get paid more to make the same steak, and yes they make it better just like the legacy pilots make air travel better for their customers. NBA players get paid more than WNBA because there company makes more money. Until we start making what the legacies make percentage wise let’s stop with the daydreaming.

In 2024 Frontier got 9.47 cents revenue for every seat mile.
In 2024 Delta got 21.37 cents revenue for every seat mile.

Delta gets more than 2X revenue per seat mile.

For just A320/A321 aircraft?
Or does that include WB FC/BC?

I concede DALs revenue is likely higher even if adjusted for type, but I'd be interested to see an apples-to-apples comparison.

It’s true legacies make more money make more money, but their pilots don’t individually make more money for their companies. What specifically does a legacy pilot do that F9 pilots aren’t? What is the legacy pilot doing that warrants additional pay? In fact, F9 lacks the support structure some other pilots enjoy, so I argue our pilots are actually doing more in terms of actions taken toward accruing profit.

Chefs at higher-end restaurants get paid more not to “make the same steak” but to use their skills and experience to make a particular steak unlike any other steak available on the market. They may use dry aged meat, Wagyu sourced from Japan, or rare game that would suffer from even a moment of extra heat.

Unlike chefs who influence the preponderance of the customer experience by virtue of what they plate, 121 pilots have a comparatively miniscule role. Make a few announcements, turn on a sign, shout out a birthday, talk about the weather? Perhaps. But probably silent for almost the entire flight.

Legacy and F9 pilots fly the same A320 and A321 aircraft. The FAA type rating is the same. The runways, airports, and approaches are the same. The pilots are locked in their cockpit and therefore I assert they cannot substantively affect profit any differently than an F9 pilot.

NBA/WNBA? When’s the last time customers flooded to a legacy because a particular pilot (save perhaps Sully) is at the controls? Fans specifically go to watch NBA/WNBA stars. The comparison between NBA/WNBA is a false equivalency. There are so many other factors at play including the derision of female sports, the economics of advertising/broadcasting rights (also historically male-dominated), advertiser choices and so forth. Airline customers care little to see us unless they’re touring a kid or want to joke about a landing. Most customers simply want to get from A to B safely and in relative comfort. It’s not daydreaming to demand we receive pay equal to our counterparts. And “pay” might not all reside in the hourly rate. Maybe it’s DC. Maybe it’s LTD. Maybe a combo. Kit Darby just highlighted SWA as having the highest total career earnings.

If we’re serious about having a “career contract” then it shouldn't be a “daydream”. If we're serious then the economic proposal put forth by the NC has merit and we should rally behind that effort.

The same pay, for the same license, for the same aircraft, via the same SIDs/STARs, to the same airports.

I respect you Bus; if you truly think it's fantasy, perhaps our NC should revise our collective expectations.

You aren't going to get one because airlines aren't required to publicly report them. Also you can't remove FC and say its "apples to apples" because Delta pilots flying Airbus are flying those FC seats and they generate more revenue. So if your Airbus are all coach and Delta is flying FC then they should certainly make more money since they are flying far more revenue.

I bet they still have a 50% higher RPM than F9 does.

This is the answer Grok gave. Remember Grok is an AI and doesn't have an agenda (we hope) and no emotional connection to either argument.

Several factors could justify a Delta Airlines pilot flying an A320 earning more than a Frontier Airlines pilot flying the same aircraft:

1. Career Trajectory and Pilot Retention: Delta is often a destination airline for pilots, attracting seasoned aviators who see it as a long-term career goal with higher pay and stability. In contrast, Frontier operates as a mid-tier, stepping-stone airline, where many pilots—especially younger ones—gain experience before moving to top-tier carriers like United, American, or Delta. This dynamic means Delta tends to employ pilots who’ve reached a career pinnacle, while Frontier’s workforce includes less senior pilots, impacting pay scales.
2. Company Revenue and Profitability: Delta generates significantly higher revenue and operates on a larger scale than Frontier. This financial capacity allows Delta to offer higher salaries while maintaining profitability. Frontier, as an ultra-low-cost carrier, prioritizes keeping operational costs—including labor—lower to offer competitive ticket prices.
3. Benefits and Perks: Beyond base salary, Delta pilots often receive better retirement plans, health benefits, and profit-sharing bonuses, which effectively increase their total compensation package compared to Frontier’s leaner offerings.
4. Market Positioning: Delta competes as a premium airline, which supports paying pilots more to attract and retain top talent. Frontier, aiming for cost efficiency, might not prioritize the same level of pilot compensation to keep fares low.
5. Profit Margins: Frontier operates on razor-thin profit margins compared to Delta, which enjoys robust profitability from its larger scale and premium market position. Paying Frontier pilots the same as Delta’s could push Frontier into unprofitability, as its low-cost model relies on keeping expenses—including labor—tightly controlled.

So if the international market or CC game collapses overnight and Frontier is suddenly more profitable than Delta should their pilots make less than us? Unlikely but let’s just say hypothetically….

1. Not related to what pilots do or don't. Plus, "Frontier's workforce includes less senior pilots". Using that logic the total pay requirement would be reduced because not everyone is a 12 year CA.
2. This has been the crux of our discussion. I don't think less revenue alone should be a killer for F9 pilots.
3. True, but so what? Our NC seems to want this as well: "career contract"
4. Unrelated to pilot actions. F9 can market themselves however they wish. Even BB tried moving away from "ULCC" in his attempt to undermine SWA.
5. Not a pilot problem.

When my ballot arrives I know how I'm voting.

If our discussions are now reduced to AI cut & paste, this is pointless.

Maybe Grok should negotiate our contract then.

mic drop….