A couple of simple questions for anyone who thinks the creation and continued existance of the seperate seniority list at GoJet is a good or even ok thing:

Which situation will provide both TSA and GoJet pilots the best chance for contract negotiations in the future, especially with the 96 seaters coming to one of your airlines?

Scenario A - Two certificates with one seniority list and the attempt at creating an alter-ego squashed once already through pilots voting with their feet and saying, "No Hulas, I don't want to help you walk away from the negotiating table."

or

Scenario B - Two certificates and two seniority lists with the precedent set for Hulas to simply walk away from both groups and start a third list if you don't give him what he wants


Also, if Tilton is successful in setting up an alter-ego carrier with Aer Lingus will you tell the United pilots they should have secured the flying?

Well the majors don't hire banner towers and CFIs. We all have to get our experience from somewhere.

There aren't positions for all of us at 135 operations and some of them are even worse than the regionals. Flying a 182 full of skydivers won't get you a job at the majors either.

A little hyperbole for the discussion huh?

Joining in one voice would be easier if you were under one list.....

Tell me does enabling management to walk away from the negotiating table help or degrade the profession? The creation of GoJet allowed Hulas to walk away and get everything he wanted.

So joining a second seniority list created to get around negotiations with another union group is rallying the troops and sending a strong message to management that we can't be divided?

Re-regulation won't happen but I do agree that a national seniority list is a must, however it probably won't happen.

I do agree regionals need to go away, but simply saying that won't make it happen. There needs to be financial incentive for that to occur and that means that the regional's operating costs need to go up. We can only do that by comparing our contracts and negotiating for the best ones we can get.

We also need our brothers at the majors to hold the line on scope. Even then though management will look for anyway possible to farm out the flying and going to the cheapest regional or one set up to circumvent negotiations doesn't help. Sure it is easy to say well you only make a few more dollars per hour then I do but every little bit of extra cost we inflict on the majors helps make us less appealing to them.

I just fail to understand the logic behind thinking that a second in house seniority list will help improve the QOL and pay at either airline. Please go ahead and explain how GoJet's second seniority list doesn't undermine both groups current and future ability to negotiate for better contracts.

Courts never get it wrong, right? I guess there really is no need for that pesky appeals process in our justice system.

So what exactly is your definition of an Alter-Ego?

hoorraay for mediocrity!!!

Wouldn't you be in a better negotiating position today if Hulas didn't have the internal whipsaw card to play? Wouldn't your union and pilot group be more powerful and able to get an industry leading contract instead of just industry standard?

Last I checked the major pilots initially gave away the 50 seaters and scope and then later had more of it taken away by chapter 11 proceedings.

Your comparison would be correct if CFIs could get hired to the majors, the major pilots had actually wanted the 50 seaters, and were in negotiations to get them. If management tried to get around those negotiations with the major pilots by creating the regionals under a new holding company and staffing them with new pilots on a new seniority list then yes we would all be solely guilty of destroying the career and we would be part of an alter-ego.

Of course I guess I could rationalize my decision by saying: "Those major pilots should have secured the flying!"

The regionals are a necessary evil for most of us wanting to get to the majors. No one wants to get stuck at them or be there very long, so why not try and work for one that pays a little more (even if only a little)?

I hope all of us would give back the flying to the majors if it were possible (I know I would) but it isn't. So moving forward we need to do our part to ensure we are the least financially tempting to the majors as possible. I just don't see how circumventing another group's negotiations and creating future internal whipsaw does anything but hurt your own ability to negotiate better contracts.

I guess it'll take Hulas walking away from your group during negotiations to create another alter ego for you to finally realize the power you have given him.

I, for one, hope it comes to that. TSA should get released from their bad faith negotiations and when they do they'll strike. I can't wait to see how that plays out. If Gojet guys hold the line and refuse the additional flying maybe they'll have earned a shred of respect back from me.... but I'm not holding my breath.

Separate list, created to circumvent a collective bargaining agreement, no different than Freedom A. gojets is an alter-ego.

Correction, the former freedom, now known as Freedom A was constituted as an alter-ego, once the lists were merged they were no longer a separate entity, thus, no longer an alter ego. You do understand the definition don't you? You should, you work for one.

What does KFC, Tacobell, and gojets have in common? All have substandard pay....

Once again, what your saying by your own admission is that TSA should have secure the flying at the 50 seat rates that Hulas was offering. So would you take substandard wages to secure flying for gojets? Would you fly a 190 for 70 seat wages just to make sure you got the flying? You never answer that question, put your money where your mouth is, answer the question.

Also, like your co-workers continue to post on here, you are saying that because is Hulas we're dealing with here, that it's all fair, everyone should just take it, the way you guys continue to do at gojets.

Incorrect, the circumstances are actually documented in the court documents, the reason why TSA did not "secure" the flying is because they were trying to negotiate better rates and a better contract, and Hulas opted to form an alter-ego instead to avoid negotiations. You do realize that it is almost 2010 and TSA does not have a contract yet, don't you?

Nope, incorrect again. gojets is represented by a chapter of the teamsters that doesn't even represent aviation, now why do you think that is?

There's nothing standard about the gojets contract, in fact it's deficient to industry standard in every way, work rules, wages, and most of the other things that the TSA guys were trying to negotiate at the time the alter-ego was created...ironic isn't it?

So according to your logic, since Tilton is looking at starting an alter-ego here under a similar set of circumstances as Hulas did in '05, anyone taking a job at the new alter-ego Tilton is creating is no different than anyone looking for a job at UA, or US, or CAL?

Incorrect again, the contract my company operates under is far superior to gojets in every aspect including wages, pretty sad that you guys are flying around in a 70 seater getting paid 15% less than guys flying around in 50 seaters don't you think?

Furthermore, if you think the creation of regional airlines makes up for the creation of an alter-ego, well, now you're just trying to make yourself feel good about accepting a job that directly circumvents an existing bargaining agreement. I honestly think it's sad that you guys have to defend your position all the time, and should clearly be an indicator of how the rest of the industry perceives you guys.

Starbucks is hiring and you can make more money there than your first year at gojets, so please spare everyone the "I took the only job I could find" story. I've got plenty of friends that were furloughed none of them even considered gojets as an option. They respect themselves and their brothers in the industry a lot more than that.

By your own admission in the paragraph above you're saying that because it's "legal", because is "business", it's ok, there are a number of folks that had the same mentality back 83. Taking a job that directly takes a job from another pilot as in the case of gojets with TSA is exactly the same, yet you're saying is ok because if it's not you, someone else will go fly for Hulas. If everyone in the industry thought the way you guys do, we would all be paying our bosses to fly.

Well, when you guys get integrated, we'll talk, until then you wishing that you were on a single list doesn't change the status of the company, it's still an alter-ego.

Mesa does not have alter-ego, and they have made improvements to their contract, until gojets gets integrated, you guys will continue to be alter-ego operation and treated as such, as it should be.

With all due respect, it seems to me like you did not learned anything as an ALPA member. It's very unlikely that you guys would stand shoulder to shoulder with us, if you've yet to stand up to Hulas for a better contract. No one is planning on staying at the regional level (with very few exceptions), but you seem to think that's a reason to accept a substandard contract, without realizing the ripple effect that such actions have on the majors. Think about it for a second, if we continue to push pay and QOL, although it well never match our brothers at the majors, then we set a precedent for negotiations at all levels. I guess it's difficult for people to see the big picture, but I have no doubt that depending on how things turn out for you, you'll see it crystal clear in the years to come.

No sir, not all of us are guilty of SJS. Many of us did our homework, before we entered the market. Your comparison to racial crimes is absolutely absurd, and quite possibly insulting to some here. But don't worry, like the guys in the 80's, 20 or 30 years down the line you won't be subject to scrutiny all the time for backstabbing your brothers at TSA in back. You want to talk about moving forward, why don't you guys start by asking your non-aviation union to push for a single list?

Actually on second thought your comparison is not only pure hyperbole but also entirely incorrect.

An individual, whether they are black, white, or whatever has absolutely no choice in the matter. It is genetic, we can't control the color of our skin.

On the otherhand you made a concious choice to apply and accept a position at GoJet. Unless you are oblivious to everything going on in the industry you must have recognized that it was a controversial choice to make. You can't expect to make that decision and not have consequences or judgement passed on you for the choice you made. You knew GoJet was a controversial airline so you knew that others would question your choice. You can't get upset when people question and debate your choice and it certainly doesn't give you the right to play the persecution card.

Well look who doesn't want to deal with facts. The light is too powerful! Which do you want to fly more, a CAL 757 or a scab alterego bottom feeding ERJXR? See I can make stuff up too, I don't need facts or court rulings!!!

Everyone is trying to tell you and you refuse to accept that current Gojet pilots have nothing to do with what happened to TSA and their weak contract. Bashing will not help things at all, pilots vs pilots leads to absolutely nothing.

GJ can not sympathy strike. It's in their "great" new contract. If TS strikes and Uncle Hulie calls the GJers to cover our stuff, and they refuse...they're fired.

I invite you to quote any post of mine where I've bashed you or any other employee of gojets.

What's funny is that everyone knows that we've never cross a picket line at XJT, and everyone knows that we were not created to circumvent an existing contract, conversely everyone knows that gojets is an alter-ego, it's historically documented, as much as you and any one at gojets would like to change the status of the company, the only thing left for you is to push for a single seniority list.

Now, if you take pride in working for gojets answer the question:

You have stated that TSA failed to secure the flying. Everyone knows and is also documented that they were trying to negotiate for better than 50 seat rate on a 70 seat aircraft.

So would you take substandard wages to secure flying for gojets? Would you fly a 190 for 70 seat wages just to make sure you got the flying?

If you're trying to sustain any credibility you should answer the question, it's pretty simple, yet you continue to answer my posts without answering the question. Or is it because you're afraid of the answer? Because you know it strikes at the root of your argument.

Remember, AirWillie is an ex-Trans States pilot (who used to bash GoJetters) who went to GoJet when he was furloughed. It's hard to have any credibility when you're in his position.

I love how both you and goaround eliminate specifics in a attempt to discredit the conversation. Although I fully agree with the hyperbole of my argument, and your logic of "choice" isn't totally faulty, you left out the CHOICE of religion, therefore my example, at least with regard being Jewish, holds true.