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writer needs help w/ authentic descrip (long)

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writer needs help w/ authentic descrip (long)

Old 06-30-2017, 09:22 AM
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Default writer needs help w/ authentic descrip (long)

Hi everyone. I'm a writer. I'm currently working on a novel set in a fantasy world with WWI/WWII technology. The genre is dieselpunk, which in a nutshell is retrofuturistic with some odd stuff thrown in. The first Captain America movie was dieselpunk, for instance. I have been basing a lot of the technology on real planes etc. from our history, but I am also including some weirder stuff (robots and some fantasy airplanes). The story takes place during a civil war, so the ruling faction has later WWII technology, while the rebels tend to have tech ranging from WWI era to early WWII.

Anyway, I'm at a point in my story where a rebel character, let's call him Sam, is trying to create a new (fantasy) airplane. The ruling faction just came out with new devastating bombers called Eagles, loosely based on Flying Fortresses, which have thick wings and use radar and have far greater range and speed due to the addition of tetraethyl lead in their fuel. The rebels managed to steal the notes of the engineer who created the Eagles, and Sam is using them to try to create a fighter to counter them. His concept is to build what he'll call Hummingbirds: small, extremely maneuverable crafts, using the new fuel additive and the radar, but probably not the thick wings.

So what I need help with is to properly describe the process by which he realizes that various things aren't working, so that he can have breakthroughs and ultimately engineer a new, far more advanced craft. For instance, the Eagles have four turboprop engines powering propellers, so he's going to use the same tech for the Hummingbirds' propellers. But I was reading up on sound barrier issues and I'm going to have the propellers behaving like Stearman propellers, meaning they spin fast enough to reach supersonic speeds and that causes problems with turbulence. This will lead Sam to ultimately engineer either turbojet or turbofan engines. This is one spot where I'm murky. What makes more sense, that an engineer would develop turbojet engines from turboprop engines, or that he'd develop turbofan engines? I gather turbojet engines predate turbofan engines, but in this novel it doesn't have to progress as it did in the real world. It just has to lead to the creation of this fantasy fighter plane, which can be really advanced, even beyond WWII tech (they have robots already, you know).

Another issue is going to be what material the plane is made of. My concept is for the Hummingbirds to be light and beautiful in contrast to the Eagles which are dark and grim. So the idea I had before I started doing research was that the Eagles would be made of iron while the Hummingbirds would be made of bronze. Well, a few hours of reading later and obviously that isn't going to work. So I haven't really dealt with what the Eagles are made of, other than to say that they are painted black and have chrome fittings. Ultimately it's not something any of the characters would need to know about them, except maybe if Sam is trying to copy their construction, which he really isn't overall because he's not making a bomber. But I do need to have a better sense for the Hummingbirds, as I would like to have another breakthrough happen wrt to what materials he uses to construct them. I have him building the prototype using wood, fabric, and aluminum, but that won't hold up at the speeds the Hummingbird will go. There's going to be a spectacular failure of one of the test flights. So then he needs to figure out what alloy will work better, and I'd like to do something with copper and aluminum, so I can justify describing the Hummingbirds as golden or bronze colored. I've also been reading about anodized aluminum, and that might work, though I don't understand why it sometimes has color and sometimes doesn't. Is it just something people do to make it pretty? Or does color happen as a chemical reaction to some types of anodization? Any advice there is very much appreciated.

Another problem he's going to run into is wing twist and control reversal. Am I understanding the process of wing twist correctly: air flow is so powerful over the wing due to high speeds that although the intention was for the wing to push down, instead it snaps up, like a reversed umbrella? And then everything else to do with the wing is somehow reversed? Not sure I'm totally getting this.

Someone I spoke to about this suggested that the solution to wing twist in the Hummingbirds would be a pivoting wing that sweeps back to a predetermined angle at high speed like the Grumman F-14 Tomcat. Any advice here would also be very, very appreciated.

Essentially the end result would ideally be an airplane that really calls a hummingbird to mind, in that it would be small, beautiful, extremely fast, and maneuverable. I envision a scene where the Hummingbirds would swarm the Eagles, bringing them down.

Oh, and if anyone thinks of a cool new weapon they could use, I'd love to hear your ideas, too. They really can end up being pretty fantastic, in the sense of straying from reality, as long as their tech makes sense.

I will, of course, credit anyone who wants credit in the acknowledgements of the book. And free copies to anyone who wants them. I'm an independent writer so this is stuff I do in my free time and I really appreciate any expert advice I can get.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:29 AM
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I could also really use help properly describing what it would look like from the ground if you observed the prototype as it's being test-flown. So for instance, in the first test flight, the problem will probably mainly be the supersonic speed of the propellers. So would you be able to see the way it would cause turbulence?

Does it make sense for Sam to remain on the ground while a pilot tests the airplane? Sam isn't supposed to be a pilot, he's an engineer. But maybe he should be the one flying the tests so he can experience the problems firsthand? But then, what if the plane really failed and he was killed? How did they do it in rl?

Also, does it make sense for the first test flight to only reveal the problem with the propellers? Or would it also show the issue with wing twist? Would it get that far if the propellers are causing all that turbulence?
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:57 PM
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Don't worry about scientific accuracy; it's an alternate universe!
Here's a movie that you would appreciate. Good Luck!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Wcg5m34fw
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:46 AM
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Good one, Tom...I never even heard of that one!

In a similar vein, there's this:

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Old 07-01-2017, 02:50 PM
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Thanks for the replies and videos!

I appreciate the encouragement, but I would like to get the mechanics at least mostly right.

It would be particularly helpful if you could tell me if I'm way off in my understanding of wing twist, and all that. And how it would look to see these problems unfold if you were an observer on the ground.

Thanks!
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:11 PM
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You will have to change that part about tetraethyl lead in a turboprop engine. A turboprop is a jet engine powering a propeller. You seem to mean a turbocharged or supercharged engine, which does benefit from tetraethyl lead in the gasoline. It started to be added to gasoline back in the 1920s to increase octane, which reduces preignition in internal combustion engines.

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Old 07-02-2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by joepilot View Post
You will have to change that part about tetraethyl lead in a turboprop engine. A turboprop is a jet engine powering a propeller. You seem to mean a turbocharged or supercharged engine, which does benefit from tetraethyl lead in the gasoline. It started to be added to gasoline back in the 1920s to increase octane, which reduces preignition in internal combustion engines.

Joe
What he said.

Also...the realistic order of development is turbojet first, then turboprop. This is important because a basic turbojet (no fan/bypass) can be a relatively sloppy design, ie inefficient gas guzzling blowtorch but still makes gobs of thrust relative to it's weight. So you can make up for lack of experience/finesse by pouring more fuel on the fire.

A turboprop (or turbofan) uses a jet engine as a gas generator which provides a high-speed fluid stream to drive a turbine-gearbox-prop mechanism. The gas generator (ie turbojet) would need to be carefully designed to match the prop mechanism, so extensive experience with turbojet design would probably be required before adding a prop.

For military applications jets are usually better. A turboprop's sole redeeming feature is fuel economy (much better than a jet), so they make sense for transports (mil or civvy) and patrol/recon planes, but not so much for fighters or bombers. The US turboprop bomber phase was short-lived (although the russians still operate bears with 1950's technology).

A more realistic progression would be the one that actually happened...piston prop engines developed to the nth degree under wartime pressure, culminating in turbocharged and supercharged V-12's making perhaps 2000+ HP before being rapidly superseded by jets.

Turboprop, turbocharging, and supercharging are all different things. If you don't already know the differences, you should look it up.

And no tetraethyl lead in jets.
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Old 07-03-2017, 04:57 PM
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Re: the mistake with the tetraethyl lead, thank you both, this is just the sort of feedback I need.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
A more realistic progression would be the one that actually happened...piston prop engines developed to the nth degree under wartime pressure, culminating in turbocharged and supercharged V-12's making perhaps 2000+ HP before being rapidly superseded by jets.

Turboprop, turbocharging, and supercharging are all different things. If you don't already know the differences, you should look it up.

And no tetraethyl lead in jets.
Would a piston prop engine use fuel with the tetraethyl lead additive?

You say jets superseded piston prop engines. Does the jet engine evolved out of the piston prop in some way?

I'm thinking I need to have my Eagles use piston prop engines (if they do use fuel with tetraethyl lead) and have my rebel engineer come up with jet engines based off them somehow. Would that make sense?
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Old 07-03-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
Re: the mistake with the tetraethyl lead, thank you both, this is just the sort of feedback I need.



Would a piston prop engine use fuel with the tetraethyl lead additive?

You say jets superseded piston prop engines. Does the jet engine evolved out of the piston prop in some way?

I'm thinking I need to have my Eagles use piston prop engines (if they do use fuel with tetraethyl lead) and have my rebel engineer come up with jet engines based off them somehow. Would that make sense?
High performance piston engines would need TEL or some other octane booster.

Jet engines could plausibly evolve from the turbo chargers used to boost piston engine performance. Add a combustion chamber to a turbo charger (and an afterburner if you want to go all out). In fact early jets bore a resemblance to turbo chargers, so there is likely some basis in fact to that.
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
High performance piston engines would need TEL or some other octane booster.

Jet engines could plausibly evolve from the turbo chargers used to boost piston engine performance. Add a combustion chamber to a turbo charger (and an afterburner if you want to go all out). In fact early jets bore a resemblance to turbo chargers, so there is likely some basis in fact to that.
Awesome. Thank you so much, this is a great help.
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