Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Pilot Lounge > Hangar Talk
Green New Deal! (Air Travel Unnecessary) >

Green New Deal! (Air Travel Unnecessary)

Search
Notices
Hangar Talk For non-aviation-related discussion and aviation threads that don't belong elsewhere

Green New Deal! (Air Travel Unnecessary)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 02-13-2019, 10:06 AM
  #481  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,160
Default

Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
The fact if the matter is that the proverbial low hanging fruit in battery research done got plucked decades ago.
I read a couple of technical papers on batteries a while back. Your assessment is spot on.

What's happening today in battery technology is that they're pushing the extreme edges of the envelope, which is why we now see occasional thermal runaways on batteries.

Today's batteries are one of the least environmentally friendly products built. It would be FAR better for the environment to strip mine coal and burn it for on-demand electricity rather than pursuing some pie-in-the-sky idea of collecting electricity with solar/wind and then storing it for when there's no solar/wind (night/calm winds) and there's still demand for electricity.
Andy is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:15 AM
  #482  
Gets Weekends Off
 
PRS Guitars's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,297
Default

This thread is fascinating, and illustrates how well the progressive left has infiltrated schools and used this issue to further its agenda.


The backgrounder on the GND clearly states that it is a massive transformation of our society. You can then read the bullet points and see that, it in fact is clear as day pushing us into socialism. Yet, when this is pointed out, GND apologists on here claim that we are wrong, crazy, stupid, watch too much Fox News/Rush/Hanity.

The far left managed to scare a generation into believing that the world will end soon, if we don’t do something drastic, and that something drastic is socialism. Since students are now taught more about climate change than socialism, it’s only natural that they’d be in favor. But once (if) folks see the reality of socialism, which goes completely against human nature, they will regret this stuff.

I don’t know the ages or jobs of the GND apologists on here, but I assume most are young Regional guys. Most probably have aspirations of getting a job at a major. Most have spent a crap ton of money, blood sweat and tears to get where they are. Most would like to be paid well for their sacrifices.

Set aside the elimination of air travel for a moment...Under the GND, their goal will be to make your discretionary income about the same as everybody else’s. There are a lot of ways they can do it, but the likely way (and what AOC has proposed) is an 80% top marginal tax rate with no loopholes. She claims this would only be on ultra wealthy but also acknowledges that that’s not enough. So it will work it’s way down. Something along the lines of:

$0 to $80k has a tax credit that will bring their income up to $80k
$80k to $100k has a 50% rate
$100k plus has an 80% rate

So as a major CA making $300k you’d gross about $120k, and your unemployed (by choice) neighbor would gross $80k. How happy would you be with that after years of hard work? What would be the incentive to work hard?

AOC and her ilk assume a static model of the economy and assume production. But that’s not how it works, because under the above scenario, you’d say, “screw it” I’ll just not work and live like my neighbor.

This is just a simple example of how this could work, but don’t take my word, just look at Venezuela’s dramatic slide into socialism. And no, it’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s a history lesson. I’m not wearing a tin foil hat or masturbating to Fox News. It is spelled out clearly in the GND.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...w-Deal-FAQ.pdf

Do I think this is likely...not really, but it is her goal, there is no doubt about that.

Last edited by PRS Guitars; 02-13-2019 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Typo
PRS Guitars is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:18 AM
  #483  
On Reserve
 
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: Transitioning from RW to FW
Posts: 19
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
If you really want green travel, the fed needs to develop or legislate the development of bio jet fuel, which is technically available, just not developed to commercial economy of scale (which will get the price down). Most or all airliners can run on a 50/50 blend of bio/jet A. With minor modifications, they could use 100% bio fuel. Might be easier to phase in 100% with new-build planes, so the compatibility comes from the factory without any retrofits of the fuel system.
This has legs to it. As you were alluding to, there has been a lot of research already thrown at biofuels and increasing since 2012 and on. USDA, Energy, and Environmentalists have been working on alternatives including ability to incorporate alternative types of feedstocks. I agree this is the closer fix and where the Fed's short term focus should be. As they figure out the costs, I think we will see this sooner than later (hopefully within 10 years).

Although I appreciate the sentiment of protecting our environment, the more realistic approach is as you stated.
justumn30 is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:21 AM
  #484  
On Reserve
 
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: Transitioning from RW to FW
Posts: 19
Default

Originally Posted by Blue Dude View Post
Already explained that AGW is merely a pretext for political action such as the GND. Read it. It's just a wish list of leftist agenda items, many only tenuously connected to climate change if at all. And they add up to centralized government control of the economy and redistribution of wealth. That's not a straw man by any possible definition. It's a description of the actual policy goals as stating in their own document. They're not even hiding the ball anymore.

There's also no attempt to say how any of this massive shift in the economy and centralized power would address the actual threat. Will it change the global temperature, and by how much, by when, how much will it cost, and is it necessary? What are the benefits of a warmer climate vs a pre-Industrial temperature? What are the downsides? If we could choose an ideal temperature, what would that be , and what would it cost to maintain it? If we remove any effect of AGW, how would the temperature change anyway? What will happen if we do nothing? What will happen if we do everything proposed? If we cut carbon emissions to Stone Age levels, would it affect anything considering that most emissions are produced elsewhere? And so on. There's no attempt to make a make a rational case for action, only promises of global destruction if we don't go along with the same leftist agenda they've been attempting by other means for decades.
Well stated!

Last edited by justumn30; 02-13-2019 at 10:22 AM. Reason: forgot the quote
justumn30 is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:23 AM
  #485  
Strike averted!
 
at6d's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,643
Default

The problem with biofuels are what you make them out of. Corn is good for it...but requires a **** ton of water, drought tolerant growing conditions, pest control, healthy soil, space....and petroleum based fertilizer!

Ethanol from Switchgrass or other plants is costly as well.
at6d is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:32 AM
  #486  
On Reserve
 
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: Transitioning from RW to FW
Posts: 19
Default

Originally Posted by PRS Guitars View Post
This thread is fascinating, and illustrates how well the progressive left has infiltrated schools and used this issue to further its agenda.
I like the word "infiltrate". The ideological shift in kids coming out of high school is problematic. Our schools and education system is where the indoctrination begins. Socialism has never been successful. Period. It will take another generation to change the dynamics.



Originally Posted by PRS Guitars View Post
$0 to $80k has a tax credit that will bring their income up to $80k
$80k to $100k has a 50% rate
$100k plus has an 80% rate

So as a major CA making $300k you’d gross about $120k, and your unemployed (by choice) neighbor would gross $80k. How happy would you be with that after years of hard work? What would be the incentive to work hard?

AOC and her ilk assume a static model of the economy and assume production. But that’s not how it works, because under the above scenario, you’d say, “screw it” I’ll just not work and live like my neighbor.
Appreciate your thoroughness in the breakdown. Salute!

Seems clear easy math would compute and logic would prevail. People should be rewarded for their work ethic, not in spite. Good post!
justumn30 is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:40 AM
  #487  
Moderate Moderator
 
UAL T38 Phlyer's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Default

Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Kind of ironic that he pulled the plug on HSR right after the 'green new deal' was announced.

I'd love to see the math on how much electric storage would be required to make this whole pipe dream a reality. The cost of just storage would likely far eclipse the cost of this nationwide electric HSR fantasy.

It's like a Simpsons episode; this will likely have a similar ending. We'll all be poorer with nothing to show for it. California's HSR boondoggle is a cautionary tale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM
Monorail!!
UAL T38 Phlyer is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:47 AM
  #488  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
Default

Originally Posted by Blue Dude View Post
And they add up to centralized government control of the economy and redistribution of wealth.
And there it is. YOU extrapolated and projected your own right wing conspiracy theory.

If your arguments could stand on their own there would be no need for such fantastical straw man building.
Flytolive is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:49 AM
  #489  
:-)
 
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Default

Originally Posted by at6d View Post
The problem with biofuels are what you make them out of. Corn is good for it...but requires a **** ton of water, drought tolerant growing conditions, pest control, healthy soil, space....and petroleum based fertilizer!

Ethanol from Switchgrass or other plants is costly as well.
Cellulose, and waste heat from gen IV nuclear power solves that issue completely, and is carbon negative.
Mesabah is offline  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:56 AM
  #490  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,503
Default

Originally Posted by justumn30 View Post
Fair point. Shorter route would have been better as a start.

Shorter than Merced to Bakersfield?

It was always intended as a nose under the tent sort of thing, get it started and then try to justify additional taxpayer funding with the argument that it HAD to be done, or waste all the money that was already spent. The route chosen was the cheapest and least population dense area they could find, to keep building cost down, not really designed to be useful. The route chosen was not chosen for economic viability. Exactly how many people in Bakersfield does anyone think want to go to Merced every day, and Vice versa? And those 400,000 people are basically the only customers except perhaps Fresno. But you can’t make very frequent stops with high speed rail or it quickly stops being high speed. Or energy efficient. For the same reason you’ll seldom see a 777 servicing an EAS destination.

High speed train economic viability in practice depends greatly on population density. Western Europe has that. Parts of the East Coast have that. Most of the West simply doesn’t. An agricultural area in the Central Valley of California? Nobody could seriously expect that to be economically viable.
Excargodog is online now  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
winglet
Regional
47
05-15-2016 09:45 PM
SNA320
United
30
09-03-2011 10:23 AM
SoCalGuy
United
32
04-03-2011 06:25 AM
jungle
Money Talk
6
09-11-2009 12:02 AM
Freighter Captain
Cargo
0
07-09-2005 09:27 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices