Major Tool Of The Day
08-26-2019, 04:09 AM
#341
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by sailingfun
ETOPS has nothing to do with the requirements of where to land after a engine failure. Nearest suitable airport means the same thing ETOPS or non ETOPS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ays_Flight_268 Most suitable airport for them was Heathrow due to aircraft handling issues, customs, and permits. before you write it ETOPS isn’t just for 2 engine aircraft.
Tool of the year goes to Captain Chavez who originally chastised this crew before knowing what has actually occurred.
08-26-2019, 04:53 AM
#342
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by sailingfun
ETOPS has nothing to do with the requirements of where to land after a engine failure. Nearest suitable airport means the same thing ETOPS or non ETOPS.
08-26-2019, 05:18 AM
#343
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,615
Originally Posted by maxjet
Is it “nearest suitable airport” or “Nearest suitable airport in time” huge difference. I was flying Istanbul to Miami as I was one day and started to lose oil in number 3. Our plan was that once we were at ETP we would continue to destination. Prior to ETP our plan was to take it somewhere convenient for the company and us.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ays_Flight_268 Most suitable airport for them was Heathrow due to aircraft handling issues, customs, and permits. before you write it ETOPS isn’t just for 2 engine aircraft.
Tool of the year goes to Captain Chavez who originally chastised this crew before knowing what has actually occurred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ays_Flight_268 Most suitable airport for them was Heathrow due to aircraft handling issues, customs, and permits. before you write it ETOPS isn’t just for 2 engine aircraft.
Tool of the year goes to Captain Chavez who originally chastised this crew before knowing what has actually occurred.
08-26-2019, 05:22 AM
#344
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER
Uh, what am I missing here? This has nothing to do with ETOPS. It was a B737-800 flying from Samos, Greece to Prague that lost an engine shortly into the flight but decided to press on to the destination despite the fact that there were plenty of suitable diversion airports well before the destination.
08-26-2019, 05:39 AM
#345
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Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,615
Originally Posted by maxjet
Again, you are applying your rules to their situation. You may be completely right, however, they may have different rules. Lesson learned by the FAA in the BA incident. My issue is them being called tool of the year by Chavez without knowing the facts.
I remember years ago that a Midwest MD-80 pulled this stunt between MKE-LAX(?) and got their peepee smacked by the FAA. Rightly so.
08-26-2019, 06:12 AM
#346
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Mr. Boeings QRH states, in the event of an engine failure:
This was not an ETOPS/EDTO operation... But how can airline’s OCC, and or PIC condone ignoring passing suitable airports in the name of maintenance, especially during non-ETOPS/EDTO?
Excerpt from A/C 120-42B
Section 3(b) applies, especially, whilst conducting non-ETOPS/EDTO
Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport
Excerpt from A/C 120-42B
(3) Engine Failure.
(a) Section 121.565 requires the PIC of a two-engine airplane with one engine inoperative to land at the nearest suitable airport where, in the PIC's judgment after considering all relevant factors, a safe landing can be made. This determination is especially critical for ETOPS where the availability of suitable airports may be limited and the diversion decision is therefore more critical. The following is a list of some, but not all, factors that may be relevant in determining whether or not an airport is suitable, and are consistent with the ETOPS principle of protecting the diversion once it occurs:
Airplane configuration, weight, systems status, and fuel remaining;
Wind and weather conditions en route at the diversion altitude;
Minimum altitudes en route to the diversion airport;
Fuel burn to the diversion airport;
Airport's nearby terrain, weather, and wind;
Availability and surface condition of runway;
Approach navigation aids and lighting available;
Rescue and fire fighting services (RFFS) at the diversion airport;
Facilities for passenger and crewmember disembarkation, and
accommodations;
PIC's familiarity with the airport; and
Information about the airport provided to the PIC by the certificate holder.
(b) When operating a two-engine airplane with one engine inoperative, none of the following factors should be considered sufficient justification to fly beyond the nearest suitable airport:
• The fuel supply is sufficient to fly beyond the nearest suitable airport;
• Passenger accommodation other than passenger safety; and
• Availability of maintenance and/or repair resources.
(a) Section 121.565 requires the PIC of a two-engine airplane with one engine inoperative to land at the nearest suitable airport where, in the PIC's judgment after considering all relevant factors, a safe landing can be made. This determination is especially critical for ETOPS where the availability of suitable airports may be limited and the diversion decision is therefore more critical. The following is a list of some, but not all, factors that may be relevant in determining whether or not an airport is suitable, and are consistent with the ETOPS principle of protecting the diversion once it occurs:
Airplane configuration, weight, systems status, and fuel remaining;
Wind and weather conditions en route at the diversion altitude;
Minimum altitudes en route to the diversion airport;
Fuel burn to the diversion airport;
Airport's nearby terrain, weather, and wind;
Availability and surface condition of runway;
Approach navigation aids and lighting available;
Rescue and fire fighting services (RFFS) at the diversion airport;
Facilities for passenger and crewmember disembarkation, and
accommodations;
PIC's familiarity with the airport; and
Information about the airport provided to the PIC by the certificate holder.
(b) When operating a two-engine airplane with one engine inoperative, none of the following factors should be considered sufficient justification to fly beyond the nearest suitable airport:
• The fuel supply is sufficient to fly beyond the nearest suitable airport;
• Passenger accommodation other than passenger safety; and
• Availability of maintenance and/or repair resources.
Last edited by captjns; 08-26-2019 at 06:52 AM.
08-26-2019, 01:23 PM
#347
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,558
Originally Posted by captjns
Section 3(b) applies, especially, whilst conducting non-ETOPS/EDTO
Clearly I'm not alone in being thrown off by your ETOPS tangent. Everyone is talking about Trans AMs and GTOs and you show up and say, "but what about the tennis racquets..."
08-26-2019, 02:39 PM
#349
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by crewdawg
You can quote some obscure AC/ICAO/EURO reg all you want, but any way you look at it, you're hanging it out there by passing so many pieces of adequate concrete. I'd wager many of them have the ability to wrench on a 737...it's not like they're crossing sub-saharan Africa. They even operate a 737 subsidiary out of Budapest...a city in which they overflew.
Clearly I'm not alone in being thrown off by your ETOPS tangent. Everyone is talking about Trans AMs and GTOs and you show up and say, "but what about the tennis racquets..."
Clearly I'm not alone in being thrown off by your ETOPS tangent. Everyone is talking about Trans AMs and GTOs and you show up and say, "but what about the tennis racquets..."
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