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Old 10-27-2023, 08:06 PM
  #1751  
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Originally Posted by Lowslung View Post
I don’t think your conversation with Excargodog is going to be productive. My twelve year old is more capable of having an adult conversation than he is. Thankfully, at the moment at least, the majority of this country is still capable of seeing why investing in the security of Europe (and elsewhere) is a good idea. Unfortunately, there is a contingent of the media and lawmakers who appear intent on spreading the narrative of dictators and strongmen (coincidentally not unlike those who insist Hamas is a group of freedom fighters). There will likely always be a supply of folks only too ready to bite off, especially when politically expedient.
And there are way too many Americans ready and willing to spend US dollars and even spill US blood on problems that simply ARE NOT OUR problem.

Right now there are three countries in the Sahel whose democratic governments have been overthrown by military coups. Are we responsible for restoring them? Right now China and the Philippines are arguing about an ancient rusted out WWII transport ship that the Philippines ran aground on the Second Thomas Shoal in the Philippines as a base for a small contingent of Philippine marines. Should we support the Philippines “as long as it takes” if it comes to hostilities to further their claim on the Spratly islands?
Are we to be to be the policeman for the whole world?

More to the point, are you going to encourage your 12 year old to sign up for that fight? And it will be a fight with - again - the logistics very much against us. I put in my 20+ change. You going to encourage your kid - the one capable of having an adult conversation - to join up? Because the ranks are starting to get thin.

That scraping noise you hear…
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Old 10-27-2023, 11:29 PM
  #1752  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
Nobody said there wasn’t commerce between the US and Europe.
Nobody claimed a war wouldn’t disrupt that.
Nobody claimed that wars are good or not a problem.
But that wasn’t the issue that was asked about. The issue was:
you asked why its our problem. I answered with why an unstable europe would be our problem. Please stop wiggling and counter the points…..it’s beneath you
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Old 10-27-2023, 11:34 PM
  #1753  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
And there are way too many Americans ready and willing to spend US dollars and even spill US blood on problems that simply ARE NOT OUR problem.

Right now there are three countries in the Sahel whose democratic governments have been overthrown by military coups. Are we responsible for restoring them? Right now China and the Philippines are arguing about an ancient rusted out WWII transport ship that the Philippines ran aground on the Second Thomas Shoal in the Philippines as a base for a small contingent of Philippine marines. Should we support the Philippines “as long as it takes” if it comes to hostilities to further their claim on the Spratly islands?
Are we to be to be the policeman for the whole world?

More to the point, are you going to encourage your 12 year old to sign up for that fight? And it will be a fight with - again - the logistics very much against us. I put in my 20+ change. You going to encourage your kid - the one capable of having an adult conversation - to join up? Because the ranks are starting to get thin.

That scraping noise you hear…
red herring, no one is talking about US boots on the ground.
Furthermore the conflicts you mentioned do not have the potential impact that a european war with RU would. How can you possibly equate the two?

please explain, in detail how the conflicts you mentioned would have the same effect on the US as a war in Europe would. Thank you
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Old 10-28-2023, 05:56 AM
  #1754  
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Originally Posted by Hubcapped View Post
you asked why its our problem. I answered with why an unstable europe would be our problem. Please stop wiggling and counter the points…..it’s beneath you
No, you answered why it would be SOMEBODY’s problem, not why it would be OUR problem. The Rwandan genocide was definitely SOMEBODY’S problem, because a half million people were hacked to death, but we largely stayed out of it. What makes the Ukraine OUR responsibility. That is the issue you are missing.
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Old 10-28-2023, 06:13 AM
  #1755  
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Originally Posted by Hubcapped View Post
red herring, no one is talking about US boots on the ground.
Furthermore the conflicts you mentioned do not have the potential impact that a european war with RU would. How can you possibly equate the two?

please explain, in detail how the conflicts you mentioned would have the same effect on the US as a war in Europe would. Thank you
Gee, our doddering Chief Executive has promised to support Taiwan against China, reneging on the ‘strategic ambiguity’ that has been the rule since Nixon’s China visit.
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-...ndent%20Taiwan.

He has promised to support the Philippines against China

You seriously believe THAT doesn’t have the potential to cause trouble that Russia stealing a few Ukrainian provinces would? You ever hear of something called the Korean War?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-...%20Philippines.

And we already have boots on the ground in Syria, much of the Middlle East, Germany, Spain, Italy, Kosovo, and a lot of other place and are building bases in Poland,

https://www.gov.pl/web/national-defe...%20in%20Poznan.

And there are LOTS of people suggesting we put boots on the ground in Ukraine.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/unite...visers-ukraine

and some already there:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ment-rcna54891
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Old 10-28-2023, 06:42 AM
  #1756  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
No, you answered why it would be SOMEBODY’s problem, not why it would be OUR problem. The Rwandan genocide was definitely SOMEBODY’S problem, because a half million people were hacked to death, but we largely stayed out of it. What makes the Ukraine OUR responsibility. That is the issue you are missing.
i explicitly laid out reasons why an unstable europe is the US’s problem. Now you’re just running my little pigeon

in case you need a refresher:
european stability is important because of:
trade, travel, nuclear security, and geopolitical influence
trade: we trade, instability disrupts trade. Exports were $592.0 billion; imports were $723.3 billion in 2022
travel: money via travel goes back and forth
pre covid roughly 20 million people traveled between the us and eu or eu to us.

nuclear security: a france or england on the ropes against RU violating their territory risks the escalation of nuclear force. Self evident.
geopolitical influence: we lose a say at the table wrt world political decisions. Self evident.
We need future allies against ru, iran, and china that will trust us to follow through...self evident.


tell me how these are NOT in our best interests pigeon……or just keep wiggling. You do give me my daily endorphins watching you flounder, and for that i thank you

lolzzzzzzz

Last edited by Hubcapped; 10-28-2023 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 10-28-2023, 06:45 AM
  #1757  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
Gee, our doddering Chief Executive has promised to support Taiwan against China, reneging on the ‘strategic ambiguity’ that has been the rule since Nixon’s China visit.
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-...ndent%20Taiwan.

He has promised to support the Philippines against China

You seriously believe THAT doesn’t have the potential to cause trouble that Russia stealing a few Ukrainian provinces would? You ever hear of something called the Korean War?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-...%20Philippines.

And we already have boots on the ground in Syria, much of the Middlle East, Germany, Spain, Italy, Kosovo, and a lot of other place and are building bases in Poland,

https://www.gov.pl/web/national-defe...%20in%20Poznan.

And there are LOTS of people suggesting we put boots on the ground in Ukraine.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/unite...visers-ukraine

and some already there:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ment-rcna54891
red herring, no one in this discussion mentioned boots on the ground. Try and track the conversation, i know its tough when the magic box is bombarding you every day with fear porn

So where are we with major statements youve either supported and theyve turned out false or lacked the courage to refute?
Poland grain deal
eu support
RU blitzkrieg breakthrough
In surmountable defensive lines
eu national dissent supporting RU
china attacking us from cuba
nato being willing to attack RU
red herrings abound
and now a stable EU is not in our interests

oh my pigeon, you are so good at flapping about.

Last edited by Hubcapped; 10-28-2023 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 10-28-2023, 07:08 AM
  #1758  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
No, you answered why it would be SOMEBODY’s problem, not why it would be OUR problem. The Rwandan genocide was definitely SOMEBODY’S problem, because a half million people were hacked to death, but we largely stayed out of it. What makes the Ukraine OUR responsibility. That is the issue you are missing.
Rwanda has nothing to do with global economics or global stability. It would be nice if we could intervene in every humanitarian disaster but we practically cannot. UN tries to do that, a little bit.
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Old 10-28-2023, 07:24 AM
  #1759  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Rwanda has nothing to do with global economics or global stability. It would be nice if we could intervene in every humanitarian disaster but we practically cannot. UN tries to do that, a little bit.
i think he is being purposely obtuse because the answer is obvious, he just doesn’t want to say it.

apologies for quoting you rick, you have more maturity than i and stay above this childish bickering. Its just ridiculous to be called a liar on semantics, and then have the same individual knowingly throw out red herrings to not address the issue. The irony of dishonesty is not lost. Its like dealing with a 5th grader.

I attempted to have a civil conversation that quickly went to “take a history lesson” then “you are a liar”. He is literally incapable of having a stand up calm exchange of ideas. For a man his age its just sad to watch and is indicative of the state of our nation. There is a reason the RU preys on certain demographics with their propaganda. And tbh they are doing a great job.

europe is our problem. They are our ally against RU, china, and in some aspects India as they seem to slowly slide into authoritarian rule. Europe has the preponderance of the worlds nuclear weapons, and comprise more than a trillion dollars in trade…..that statement is irrefutable. Any normal educated non emotional human can understand that.

Last edited by Hubcapped; 10-28-2023 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 10-28-2023, 07:32 AM
  #1760  
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An excerpt:

​​​​​The US defense industry — Biden’s “arsenal of democracy” — is struggling to produce enough artillery shells to ensure Ukraine can keep firing them at Russian forces. The Pentagon is bombing targets in Syria as it rushes air defenses to the region to protect troops in case Israel’s war against Hamas prompts new attacks by enemies. Taiwan, another American ally, has stepped up orders for American weapons as China confronts it over strategic sea lanes.

In capitals across Europe and Asia, officials are growing worried that some partners might ultimately be shortchanged as the surge in simultaneous challenges strains the US ability to respond and its defense industry struggles to produce enough weapons for all these conflicts. Rivals in Beijing, Moscow and Tehran, they fear, won’t miss the openings that creates.

Adding to the alarm is the presidential election just over a year from now that may return Donald Trump to the White House with his talk of pulling out of alliances, making deals with Russia and openly confronting Iran and China. Already, Biden’s $106 billion budget request for aid to Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan is running into headwinds from Republicans in Congress.

Biden has raced to reassure leaders around the world that the US would be able to confront all the threats at once and deliver on its promises of support.

Privately, however, administration officials concede that the crisis in the Middle East has upended what had been a key tenet of their global approach – that the long-tumultuous region was finally heading into a period where it wouldn’t require such a big US commitment, allowing Washington to focus more on the threat from China. That eastward pivot is likely to be slowed, officials said.

National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan had to hastily recast the online version of his 7,000-word essay for Foreign Affairs on “The Sources of American Power” this week to delete a reference to the Middle East as “quieter than it’s been in decades.”

The US had been pulling resources out of the region to send them to confront China and Russia, confident that Israel, having reached historic rapprochements with key Arab countries, would be able to ensure its security without as big a presence from its main ally, according to a person involved in the discussions. That’s now all in question and the US has pushed Israel to delay its ground offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip as it shores up defenses in the region. Israel’s failure to detect the Hamas assault and defend itself once it started has also raised questions about its vaunted military capability, according to US officials.
​​
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