AUS_ATC

Hello from MEM Tower and TRACON,

I hope you don't mind an ATCer dropping by to pose a question or two...

Are you folks getting the word that "Taxi into position and hold" is going to become a thing of the past? We are receiving briefings at work that this is due to take place within the next couple of months.

As pilots, does this concern you?

As a business, does this concern your employer?

The FAA is mandating that we NOT "anticipate" separation until the preceding aircraft is 6000' and airborne, so you'll not even be allowed onto the runway until the previous departure is well on his his way.

Most of us ATCers are anticipating huge gaps between departures with this new rule. There's no telling what will happen at airports where "hitting the gap" with departures and arrivals on the same runway is the norm.

MEM_ATC

calcapt

Am I to assume that the cleared for takeoff will be received as we are holding short?

I did a recent go-around in LGA due to an aircraft, which was given TIPH, delaying their takeoff roll causing my go-around. Seems this new procedure would stop a repeat of my situation but it seems that arrival and departure rates will suffer. What are your thoughts as ATC? Is this new way safer?

WatchThis!

This is the first I've heard of it and I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying the phraseology is going to change, like an ICAO standard "line up and wait"? Is this only a MEM change or will this be throughout the NAS?

If this is a nationwide change that requires a preceding aircraft to be at 6000' on departure before the next departing aircraft can enter the runway, that WILL change a few things.

Personally, I could care less about the delays. As labor, my pay has been beaten down over the last 5 years and this would increase my block to block time (which results in slightly more pay). I DO see this as vastly safer but very wasteful and it WILL increase fuel costs at airlines.

I'll follow the new rules without complaint, pack a lunch, plan my taxi fuel accordingly, and let the ATA battle the FAA on this one.

AUS_ATC

CalCapt,

Yes, your takeoff clearance will be issued as you are holding short of the runway. There will be no more "... taxi into position and hold."

Departure and Arrival rates will be reduced depending on the configuration and workload at various airports.

I am recently from AUS, where nearly EACH and EVERY depature was slotted via TIPH between arrivals. If the Local Controller could not "hit the gap" between his arrivals, then he would not get certified in the Tower. By canceling TIPH, the spacing between arrivals at AUS (and other similar airports) will need to be increased due to the additional time for you guys (and gals) to roll around the corner and depart prior to the next arrival.

Here at MEM, our arrival and departure pushes are segregated to a large degree, so we are not "hitting gaps" as often. Plus we generally have a "non-arrival" runway for departures that is used during the arrival pushes.

The reasoning behind all of this, is supposedly due to past incidents involving "fly overs", where arriving aircraft landed over the top of an aircraft that was holding in position. I only know of this happening once, and that was at SJC many years ago. No actual numbers or statistics have been provided.

TIPH is a valuable tool that the FAA is taking away from the Controllers. I would venture to say that most of us enjoy hitting the gaps and seeing a nice mix and flow of arriving and departing aircraft.

This will certainly slow things down. Yes... it will be "safer", but is this action really necessary?

MEM_ATC

FlyerJosh

I heard the first words of this little change this morning... If it's true, I think it's going to be a disaster in regards to operational capacity and flow... particularly at airports that are already pushing the limit such as ORD, LAX, LGA, and ATL.

How does this affect ops that TIPH on a departure only runway? Such as LGA? (Aircraft TIPH and wait for the arrival to land on the crossing runway)

If I was a controller, I would be a lot more conservative on how much separation arrivals had so that I could launch planes. I know many controllers out there that aren't comfortable launching planes in 3 mile gaps, even with TIPH clearances. Many that I've come across at the medium sized airports (and some screwed up major airports), can't comfortably launch planes with less than 4-5 miles between arrivals.

There has to be a better way to reduce runway separation issues, but I don't think that this is one of the ones that will really help as much as it hurts. Perhaps they could create some sort of visual warning system to warn aircraft on the approach that another plane is holding in position (such as changing TDZ lights red or something).

AUS_ATC

WatchThis!,

"Line up and wait" was the FAA's plan last month. Apparently that has all changed with the new idea to completly cancel TIPH.

TIPH will come to an end throughout the entire NAS. HOWEVER... there are provisions that will allow it to be used at some airports... under certain conditions... and with many restrictions.

For example: At MEM, the current plan/request to allow us to use TIPH would require that we have (3) Local Control positions OPEN in the Tower; (3) Ground Control positions OPEN in the TOWER; (1) Cab Coordinator position OPEN in the TOWER; (1) Clearance Delivery position OPEN in the TOWER; and (1) Supervisor in the Tower NOT assigned to any other duties or positions.

We don't have enough people during certain periods of the day/night to staff that many positions. And there are currently no provisions that would allow MEM to use TIPH under anything other than the above mentioned staffing conditions.

NOTE: This is all subject to change, but this is how we were briefed last week by FAA Management.

MEM_ATC

FlyerJosh

FAA: "Oh and by the way... due to budget constraints, we will be reducing your staffing authorization levels by 15% beginning next fiscal year."

Blackhawk

Yeah, I see this as having a huge impact at many airports while in some cases doing little for safety. In a case where approaches and departures are using the same runway I can understand some of the changes, but not at an airport such as ATL where you have an inboard/outboard on the north and south side; inboard is used for departures, outboard for arrivals. I have seen some tower controlers on good, VMC days, getting departures out of ATL very quickly and safely while arrivals are landing on the outboard.

HSLD

Imagine O'Hare trying to impliment this, the place would implode!

TonyC

Even the delays incurred on runways that are being used exclusively for departures will be a problem. I am almost always given a TIPH clearance as the airplane in front of me is cleared for takeoff so that I will be waiting to release brakes as soon as the required spacing is achieved. The time from Cleared for Takeoff to pushing up the throttles in this scenario is much more predictable than the "cleared for takeoff to pushing up the throttles" where I am holding short of the runway.


That said, I'm not a huge fan of TIPH operations that squeeze departures and arrivals on to the same runway. It's uncomfortable sitting there when I'm being delayed for something I cannot see (an airplane behind me), and I'm uncomfortable approaching a runway when there's an airplane stationary in the touchdown zone. Perhaps limiting the amount of time that an airplane can hold, and increasing the spacing of arrivals would ease the discomfort and increase the safety levels. There should be an approach somewhere between what I've seen done, and an outright prohibition.



That's one pilot's perspective.





- The truth only hurts if it should -