"Expedite the climb"
10-20-2009, 11:38 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
KC -
Correct - -which leads to part of my question.
Often we are treated like airliners in the climb and descent planning and we often work with ATC for our fuel planning benefit and still in keeping with ATC requirements. In this case - we are already climbing at more than 6,000/fpm and usually passing 3,000-5,000 ft on departure so we seem to busting some bubble around some aircraft on an airway somewhere (also I'll mention that we see nothing on the radar anywhere near us which is why I ask about the dimensions of that safe zone)
It is both Military ATC (Lemoore Departure) and Civilian ATC (Oakland Center). Finally....one other wrinkle - we are held at 15,000 ft for a little bit until we get out from under the overhead MOA so they want me to expedite my climb above 11,000 (as said - already doing a pretty good clip) and then level off at 15,000 and try to do it somewhat smooth for those porr wingman (students) trying to hang on
I think I may stop by our departure facility and ask the question. Thanks for the answers and the discussion.
OBTW - from our SOP climbout profile - I would actually have to push over more and gain more airspeed to actually meet our best climb performance; but it is standard practice to accel at 10,000' to a better (more fuel efficient) climb profile.
Rickt86 - I don't think a dropzone is a factor. From the call - I get that it is traffic on one of many airways running through and around the central valley. PLENTY of crop dusters - but thank goodness they operate below 200' it seems.
USMCFLYR
Correct - -which leads to part of my question.
Often we are treated like airliners in the climb and descent planning and we often work with ATC for our fuel planning benefit and still in keeping with ATC requirements. In this case - we are already climbing at more than 6,000/fpm and usually passing 3,000-5,000 ft on departure so we seem to busting some bubble around some aircraft on an airway somewhere (also I'll mention that we see nothing on the radar anywhere near us which is why I ask about the dimensions of that safe zone)
It is both Military ATC (Lemoore Departure) and Civilian ATC (Oakland Center). Finally....one other wrinkle - we are held at 15,000 ft for a little bit until we get out from under the overhead MOA so they want me to expedite my climb above 11,000 (as said - already doing a pretty good clip) and then level off at 15,000 and try to do it somewhat smooth for those porr wingman (students) trying to hang on
I think I may stop by our departure facility and ask the question. Thanks for the answers and the discussion.
OBTW - from our SOP climbout profile - I would actually have to push over more and gain more airspeed to actually meet our best climb performance; but it is standard practice to accel at 10,000' to a better (more fuel efficient) climb profile.
Rickt86 - I don't think a dropzone is a factor. From the call - I get that it is traffic on one of many airways running through and around the central valley. PLENTY of crop dusters - but thank goodness they operate below 200' it seems.
USMCFLYR
USMC, I suspect you are flying out of Miramar? Which if that is the case, you are in a congested airspace. When you have congested airspace, you have multiple controllers working multiple altitude blocks. That right there means coordinating your arrivals / departures probably means a lot of folks communicating with each other just to get you on your way.
Additionally, I might be wrong on this, but I suspect the FA-18 isn't RNAV, RNP, RVSM or TCAS capable (at least in the eyes of ATC/FAA). Which means, you dork up everything they have going on. While they do their best to handle you guys, you are throwing a wrench into their system. Also, ATC also has to "baby" you guys ... no disrespect meant. They know you are typically young single pilots, flying fast, and have other things you are managing. There's a little handshake agreement between the military and ATC.
If you are climbing at 6000 fpm, you very well could be setting off TCAS systems of aircraft well above you. I can tell you as a tanker guy with TCAS, the fighters routinely set off TCAS in climbs and descents.
So with that being said, they probably want you at another altitude ASAP so they can get you "out of their hair" and turn you over to the next guy, so that they can get you to the MOA as fast as they can. (whew, run-on sentence).
A visit to your local radar control facility definitely would be a good thing. There you can ask your questions and you may end up not only getting some good answers, but you may introduce a solution that is both conducive to your ops and ATCs.
I always tried to get my commanders at McGuire to let us throw a pizza party or some type of thank-you party for the area ATC folks. Routinely we take large formations of tankers and other heavies, using large blocks of altitudes, through the busiest sectors of NYC and BOS ARTCC. And those guys, although they get heated at us sometimes, rarely do they violate us (unless very much so deserved) and they always seem to accomondate our requests knowing that we are going to hose their system. Without them, we would never get our training done.
10-20-2009, 12:25 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
Hi!
We always climb at our slowest practical speed. I have had them ask me how long (or how many miles) it will take me to climb or descend to a certain altitude.
Once, I had them ask me what was the best descent rate I could give them. I said at least 14,000' a minute. He laughed, and told me to expedite descent to "____".
cliff
NBO
We always climb at our slowest practical speed. I have had them ask me how long (or how many miles) it will take me to climb or descend to a certain altitude.
Once, I had them ask me what was the best descent rate I could give them. I said at least 14,000' a minute. He laughed, and told me to expedite descent to "____".
cliff
NBO
10-20-2009, 07:20 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
[QUOTE]
And you would usually be right........but I'm a Marine in a Navy squadron and flying out of NAS Lemoore - practically out in the middle of nowhere (except Fresno of course )
And you would be right - - though we are getting better. The Supers are already RVSM qual'ed and soon the Legacies will be they tell us. I usually just plan on flying at FL280 or below nowdays unless I need to go high for some reason. It sometimes means anohter gas stop across the country - but I just swoop into Forbes Field (Topeka, KS) for some incredible BBQ!
And we appreciate it - but in my case it is usually dealing with a student (or four) that occupies my time quite a bit. If I'm alone (not young), flying fast and managing others things I still *usually* manage to leeo myself out of trouble >G<
Yep...this is a concern and something that we talk about and brief when flying in heavily congested areas; and another reason why we can't really use TCAS in the collision avoidance role as we discussed in the other thread.
When I first came to Lemoore a few years ago I stopped by the Departure Control and the Tower to talk to the controllers and ask some questions about some course rules that didn't quite make sense and they were more than welcoming and even commented that they would like to see more pilots come visit. I usually visit every new tower I can get too. It also makes me appreciate them and makes me relaize that even if I do get a little *hot* sometimes - that those guys are great and I don't think I could do their job.
USMCFLYR
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
USMC, I suspect you are flying out of Miramar? Which if that is the case, you are in a congested airspace. When you have congested airspace, you have multiple controllers working multiple altitude blocks.
)
Additionally, I might be wrong on this, but I suspect the FA-18 isn't RNAV, RNP, RVSM or TCAS capable (at least in the eyes of ATC/FAA).
Also, ATC also has to "baby" you guys ... no disrespect meant. They know you are typically young single pilots, flying fast, and have other things you are managing. There's a little handshake agreement between the military and ATC.
If you are climbing at 6000 fpm, you very well could be setting off TCAS systems of aircraft well above you. I can tell you as a tanker guy with TCAS, the fighters routinely set off TCAS in climbs and descents.
A visit to your local radar control facility definitely would be a good thing. There you can ask your questions and you may end up not only getting some good answers, but you may introduce a solution that is both conducive to your ops and ATCs.
USMCFLYR
10-21-2009, 06:39 PM
#16
Libertarian Resistance
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I don't think they know what I'm doing at the time they ask - but that will be a question I ask. I can see that if that airway was 15 miles awat for instance and they *think* I am climbing at such and such rate then they ask me to expedite.
I have found in the past that they don't know the capabilities of the aircraft - either in climbs or descents.
Good points though - next time I very well may ask what they need.
USMCFLYR
I have found in the past that they don't know the capabilities of the aircraft - either in climbs or descents.
Good points though - next time I very well may ask what they need.
USMCFLYR
WW
10-21-2009, 06:44 PM
#17
Libertarian Resistance
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
The original post used the term "expedite the climb". I frequently hear requests for "best rate" but I suspect that ATC really means "best angle".
Anything that increases the VSI seems to keep them happy.
WW
Anything that increases the VSI seems to keep them happy.
WW
10-21-2009, 07:18 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by Airhoss
USMC,
I'm guessing that "maintain maximum forward airspeed" might have a different meaning to you in an F-18 than it does me in an A-320.
I'm guessing that "maintain maximum forward airspeed" might have a different meaning to you in an F-18 than it does me in an A-320.
I sometimes have to control myself when asked for max climb/descent or best forward speed
Nah....unfortunately - maximum forward speed would soon result in declaring minimum fuel!
WW - yes the type aircraft is listed in the flight plan (though we operate locally off of stereo routes and our type is certainly no surprise to the controllers we work with every day)
Yep - I've got to get over to ATC and get this question answered.
USMCFLYR
