I was furloughed in September, hence the job at Cabelas.

These are hard times indeed. Best of luck.

Your a stronger man than I am. When I worked there I never brought home a pay check. The discounts are too good.

They aren't that good anymore. Part of the "company isn't making as much money: punish the employees" program that most corporations have now.

Funny part, now they're crying that we're not buying anything and keep trying to make contests and incentives to purchase stuff.

I'm not making enough to do much more than pay my bills and pay for a round or two of sporting clays a week anyway.

Wow!! I don't think I could do it without the old 45% discount. I guess the next thing we will see in managment stratigies is no more jumpseaters or non-reves cause they add extra weight and add fuel burn!!

I better erase that before Spirit or US Air sees it.

WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
By Marko Kloos

"Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act."

God Bless Marko
 

Jungle,
Great reference, as usual. More good words of Marko follow........


this i believe.

I believe that profit is not a dirty word, and "making money" is not a low or dishonorable motivation. The desire to make a buck is what has driven progress throughout history. I believe that commerce, the voluntary exchange of goods and values, is the best motivator for peaceful cooperation, and that the restriction of commerce promotes strife and poverty.

I believe that my life is my own. I am no one's property or sacrificial animal. I have a right to exist for my own sake, and I don't have to be ashamed of it. I do not exist to be numbered, counted, categorized, stamped, herded, and milked. I am not a cog in a machine, a sheep in a herd, or a number on a census.

I believe that taxation is equal to forced labor. I believe there is no moral or practical difference between taking the wages of a day or a week from a person to pay for a schoolhouse, and ordering them at gunpoint to spend a day or a week building that schoolhouse directly.

I believe that property rights are the basis for all other rights. If I am not free to dispose of the fruits of my labor as I see fit, all other rights are meaningless. Those who deny property rights cannot claim to be defenders of individual rights.

I believe that the term "individual rights" is a tautology. Rights can only ever be individual.

I believe that there is only one proper role for government, and that is the protection of individual rights. I also believe that no government in history has ever limited itself to that role.

I believe that my neighbor has the right to worship God, Allah, Vishnu, Odin, the Great Pumpkin, or any other deity. I have the right to worship all of those gods, or none of them, and neither of us has the right to force our beliefs on the other. That includes trying to make me live by the tenets of your faith under the guise of "majority rights"--one man's pork dinner, bourbon, or steak is another man's abomination, sin, or blasphemy. Worry about your own standing with your deity, not mine.

I believe that a crime without a victim is no crime at all. If an action doesn't violate another's person or property, no crime has been committed.

I believe that thoughts can never be a crime, nor can they be an excuse for a more severe punishment. I believe that beating a person because you want their wallet is every bit as despicable as beating them because you don't like the color of their skin.

I believe that no group has rights beyond those of any of its individual members. There is no magic or alchemy that gives a mob special rights that trump the rights of the individual.

I believe that democracy and majority rule are not automatic mandates for anyone. Without a properly constrained government, fifty-one percent of the tribe can vote themselves the right to pee in the cornflakes of the other forty-nine percent. A tyranny of the majority is still a tyranny.

I believe that any economic system that isn't centered around rational self-interest is fatally flawed. No amount of altruism or appeals to charity will motivate a man like the prospect of making money for himself.

I believe that forced charity is no charity at all, and forced virtue cannot claim credit for itself anymore than a eunuch can claim credit for chastity.

I believe that it is not my right or obligation to raise and educate your children, nor is it your right or obligation to raise and educate mine.

I believe that it is none of my business what goes on in my neighbor's bedroom, nor is it any of his business what goes on in mine, as long as no one's right are violated. Bugger a goat for all I care, as long as it is above the age of consent.

I believe that you cannot have a right to anything that necessitates a financial obligation on the part of someone else. You have a right to life, liberty, and honestly acquired property, not to any sort of monetary or material thing. The former merely requires your fellow citizens to leave you alone; the latter requires them to work for you free of charge.

I believe that it is the height of ignorance to judge an individual not by their actions, but by their ancestry, gender, nationality, religion, dietary preferences, or the melanin content of their skin.

I believe that emotions are not substitutes for facts when it comes to describing and understanding reality. Wishing something to be something other than what it is won't make it so, no matter how many people wish for it.

I believe that the most effective way to ruin something is to put the government in charge of it. I also believe that the most effective way to corrupt a religion is to mix it with government.

I believe that the desire to become President should automatically be a disqualifying factor.

I believe that anyone in favor of "free" government services has no understanding of economics.

I believe that patriotism isn't measured by flags or bumper stickers, but by your willingness to defend the rights of someone with whom you disagree completely and profoundly.

I believe that freedom of speech especially extends to unpopular or repulsive speech. Popular and uncontroversial speech does not need protection; dissent does.

I believe that the IQ of a crowd is the IQ of its least intelligent member, divided by half. I do not believe in the wisdom of the masses--intelligence is not an additive quality, but force is, and the threat or application of force is the only tool available to any crowd.

I believe that I am the only person qualified to run my life, that I have the absolute right to be my own master, and that no amount of laws and Constitutions ever written can grant me that right or take it away.

This I believe.

Nice find Paddles, that pretty much sums up the philosophy of those whose primary cry isn't "Where is my free stuff?".

Owning a firearm is a major responsibility and the proper mindset is at least as important as the technical details. It really isn't about hunting, as some would like you to believe.

Absolutely.......... Owning guns is not about hunting. It is about not being hunted.

Ok, so what kind of gun should someone like me get? Where should I get one? Cabelas?

Don't put the cart before the horse.:)

The first question is what kind of training you can get, the second is why does your state prohibit(for the most part) effective self-defense?

Vaga,

Here is what we did when it came time to get my fiance' a handgun. We went to a gun club/range that had a large selection of firearms to rent. Some places rent many many different types while others only have a few. My number one choice, and this would make gun lovers drool, is http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/index.php. If you never make it down to Arizona, try and find one in the Seattle area.

The main point is to try and figure out what feels comfortable in your hands and what type of caliber you can accurately shoot and manage the recoil. But before you even chose that you need to decide if you plan on carrying it concealed or just having it by your bedside?

Sure is a small world!! I lived out in scottsdale 4 years ago.
I did flight instructions at Sawyer Aviation!

God I miss that place!

"N-XXXX, please report pinnacle peak "

:):)

The only thing keeping me there is that it's the only job I could find. Clothing has a pretty good discount, but firearms and ammo discounts are pretty much worthless. Just bought a case of Estate 12ga game loads for $40. It depends quite greatly based on the profit margin of the item. Nobody likes it and employees aren't buying much as a result. I've bluesheeted a few things but there are only so many pairs of boots, shoes and waders you can try in the footwear department where I work.

I'd love to get a new bow, however I'd be better off waiting until I go back to the airlines and waiting for one on clearance.

Vagabond,

For somebody just getting into it, the advice above is great. If you're looking for personal defense I think the best way to go is a revolver. If you're ever in a situation where you pull the trigger, and nothing happens when you want it to, you're only another trigger pull from it doing what it's supposed to.

Vaga, I am not a defense expert but I don't think you will want to do concealed carrying. That is for professionals in law enforcement and those who live in high crime areas such as those in major cities. I suppose those who represent high profile targets want them also. I lived in the dump called north broad street in Philadelphia for a while doing charity work and had to carry a gun for that but I came to the conclusion it was not worth it since crooks had better guns and were better at using them too!

The idea about trying guns at the local range is good. I would add you need to take someone with you as a guide the first time and take a safety course first. Most ranges will not rent a weapon unless you claim to know how to use it safely, even with a guide. Rent a variety of calibers and see what feels the best. .45's and magnums kick a little bit, so you may want to try 9mm and 38's. Many police forces issue smaller caliber (.40 or 9mm) weapons to their personnel for this reason.

Also, Massad Ayoob is a wonderful gun writer. You may want to check his articles and books out.

AHHHHH The good ole' blue sheet. I lucked out and worked in the hunting department. I tried out 2 treestands, 2 different goose blinds, and a few others including a new sight for my bow. (Which I ended up purchasing anyway)

Cubdriver,

I respectfully disagree with a couple of you statements and it might have to do with some of my experiences. I have been in two different situations where guns were pulled on me, through no fault of my own. I was not armed and luckily they resulted in no one hurt. I believe that concealed carry is a GREAT option for anyone who wants to feel that they are safe in any situation. The standard crooks RARELY have better guns and in almost all cases when an upstanding citizen with a concealed weapon and some low life come to ahead, the citizen is the one that took the responsibility of carrying the weapon seriously and makes sure they are accurate and keep themselves proficient. In the end it normally ends with the "bad guy" dead and others safe.

I would suggest that anyone who is willing to take the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon to do it. Just one thought. Remember that you are making a conscious decision to not only protect yourself but that you will also have the responsibility to protect anyone, friend or stranger, if a dangerous situation should arise. 3 years ago was the only time I have ever had to pull my firearm and it was against a man who had pulled a gun on a Vietnam vet and his 5 year old grand daughter for denting his car when the wind caught the little girls door. I just happened to be walking by.

Nicely said, and in the case of those who take adequate care to get training I absolutely agree.

I too had a gun pulled on me and was close to death on one occasion, had things not gone my way. I came to the conclusion that leaving the area was the best option based on my purpose in being there in the first place, which was to do charity work. It is a good question to ask that if you end up killing petty crooks in order to do some charity work in their neighborhood how much good are you really doing? I opted to leave instead of kill a few crooks in the name of such work.

-Cub

Not really regarding the guns subject, but this story from 60 min (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4564161n), was really interesting to watch. What is your thought on mr bill, behavior. I actually think he did a good job, but with so many left wing liberals, your government will probably spend millions of dollars to crocks, for “civil injustice” or whatnot.

What your thought on this one?

This guy is a loon and a con artist. It's what happens in this country when you are out of work for to long and decide that "you" are going to take the law into your own hands. Another failed reject in America.

When it comes down to it our country has a horrible crime problem and my personal opinion is that 80%-90% of it is caused by the uncontrollable drug problem we face. Our revolving door justice system is sickening. Third time drug offenders can get probation. The United States spends billions a year overseas fighting a drug problem that it could stop in a matter of 2 years back at home if appropriate steps were taken. First time drug offenders should get to go to rehab. If they are arrested again they should be executed. It’s plain and simple way to end a majority of crime in the US. I know that it will never happen in my life time and most people say that this is wayyy to extreme, but countries like Singapore have some of the lowest crime rates in the world due to the fact that they don't have a drug problem.

Glock 23 great gun

Glock 26 (9mm)
WASR-10 (Romanian AKM-47 7.62mm)

So who's stocking up before you know who takes over Janurary 20?

I suppose some have stocked up for years. I also suppose it would be too much to get pics of all.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...llhandguns.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r.../military2.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r.../military1.jpg

I Have been meaning to post my collection for quite some time now...


I prefer old military weapons over the new stuff... The term. "Dont make em like they used to" applies here as well...


To list what I have:

Russian/Soviet
1 fully operational mosin nagant, with period scope.
1 in progress mosin nagant. (looking for a bolt and firing pin)
1 cold war era SkS with bayonet.
1 model 41 tokarev semi auto rifle
1 cold war era ak-47 (semi auto)
1 cold war era ak-47 (full auto)
1 Tokarev-Tula TT-33 pistol (missing spring in the trigger assembly)

British
Enfield N.4 Mk.1
Wanting to buy an Enfield N.5 Mk.1 (carbine version)

German
Kar Model 98a(i think, it may be the AZ, but im not certain)

USA
M1 Carbine (korean war era i think, Has the GM stamp on it. Also my favorite firearm, that i own)
M1 Garand Original service weapon... The most expensive firearm I own.
Non working 1903 Springfield... Im working on this one still.
Model 1911 .45 pistol (newer remake model, like 1950's)
S&W Compact M&P 9mm. (this is one actually brand new... My and my pops saw it and it was a good buy, so cha ching. Its actually the only new model weapon I own)


I really want a US Krag rifle, and an M14.


Ill get pics up the next time I go home....

Edit: Those are just my military firearms... I have about 30 or so others that I use for hunting and sport shooting.

Off the top of my head:

Remington model A(i think) automatic shot gun.. Modified for trap shooting.
Winchester Pump shotgun, I use this one for turkey hunting, i have all of the choke tubes for it.
Remington Premier Over and Under. Competition STS model. Used for Skeet Shooting
Winchester 30-30 repeater mid 80's model
Winchester 30-30 Carbine
Knight .50 black powder muzzle loader
Winchester model 70 bolt action .22
Winchester automatic .22 short rifle
Winchester automatic *auto-mag* .22 magnum
Unknown make 16 guage single shot.
unknown make 12 guage single shot. (both of those are hand downs from my great grandfather. The writing is wore off.)

There are so many more that I cant think of...

The advantages of your father being a gun smith. I have been shooting, collecting and repairing these things since I was 8 or so.

could start a private army right there ;p

Anybody have any info on a Walter PPK. ( 007 version). Was over at the gun store the other day and liked the size a feel of this gun in my hand. What I didn't like was that it takes a shortned 9mm jacket. Since I already have a Berretta Combat 9mm I would be buying two kinds of 9mm ammo. Its great for home defense but a little to heavy and bulky to carry concelled. Your thoughts please. Thanks in advance.....................:D

One of the shooting magazines did a great piece on the PPK a couple years back. If you're talking about the 9x19mm they basically said don't waste your time. Not much stopping power and while it doesn't kick, it's hard to find ammo so you're going to pay for it.

If you are looking for a compact home defense 9mm, I highly recommend the S&W Compact M and P .... Small, lightweight, shoots standard 9mm rounds. Not to mention retails at most gun stores at aroun 580.00 Its a bit more on their website, but shop around you will find it about 100.00 cheaper...

This pistol is very accurate. A semi skilled marksman can have a 4 in grouping from up to 25yrds or so. Also, I have put about 100 rounds down range in a single sitting before, and the thing functions perfectly... no wandering bulls eye, no jams, very little recoil, and you combine all of these together and you have a pistol you can literally shoot for hours.

I called the store near Ft. Campbell that I bought mine at, and they said they had all versions of the M and P for 571.00 plus tax. So there you have it.

When did it become tough to find 9mm? 9x19 is one of the most prolific and widely available types of ammo in the western world.

Now, if you're talking about a Makarov in 9x18....that is a different story.

He's probably talking about the 9x17mm (i.e. 9mm kurtz), better known as the .380 auto

They could take over France!

Sorry, bad example. :D

I don't know if you all have seen the waiting/back order list for AR lowers... or for AR mags, etc... it is crazy!

Just got on the list for a POF-USA P9SX 415 upper
..managed to grab some PMAGs too

I was just recalling the article from a couple years back. Don't do handguns so I didn't realize that the the 9x19mm is the same as the 9mm that goes in most semi-autos. I thought the round was shorter or something by the way they discussed it.

The PPK was designed for a few different calibers, the most popular being the .380 (same as the 9x17mm, refered to as "kurz", the German word for short), it was also designed for the .32 (7.65x17mm), as well as the 9x18mm ultra/police (not the same as the Makarov!)

I was thinking of getting a USP .45 this spring, if we can still buy guns!... There are like no gun laws in Alaska so I shouldn't have a hard time buying one, besides coming up with the money. What are your (anyone's) thoughts

This post is uneducated hehe :)

I see, thanks for the info.

I'm a dumb shotgunner. :)

I have one (well the USPc .45)... and can say it has been my favorite pistol...accurate and very, very reliable... as a matter of fact around 7000 rounds through and not even a hint of any malfunction. I would suggest getting a synthetic lubrication like TW25B instead of oil. Sometimes that gun oil will burn up and using too much of it attracts crap.
btw... I would try to get it asap.

Yeah I guess i have until January 20th haha... thanks

Nice to see this thread on here, always love talking guns anytime, esp. on a boring flight. Enjoyed reading all of your posts...

Some of my collection:

Glock 23 compact: my concealed carry gun
Best carry pistol out there in my lowly opinion. Simple / Fires every time / 13+1 / safe action trigger. Added an extended slide and mag release, trijicon sights, a storm lake barrel, 3lb trigger bar, high cap mags. Also love the Fobus holsters for these, esp the IWB setup, can wear shorts and a t-shirt and you'd never know i could ruin your day.

S&W 1022 (pistol)
Sig Sauer P229
Bushmaster AR-15
Two Remington 1903's
Two Mauser's

Also, like others I have a good sized collection of antiques, most are S&W's plus a few colts, remintons, and now defunct old german models. My great grandfather and grandfather were both guns collectors. Passed to me were a few Colt derringers, Model 1 and 3 S&W's (a few of each), S&W hammerless .32 and .38 doubleactions, S&W .38 hand ejectors, 4mm Hitler youth rifle (brought back from the war), S&W .357 and two .38 target models. I can pretty such show you the complete history of Smith & Wesson. My prized possession is a S&W .44 Russian. Haven't been able to find the complete history on it but it has nice gold inlays, and was oviously special made for someone important. Another interesting one is a old .22 german bicycle pistol. Has a 10" barrel and special detachable stock, it was made to easily clip onto your bike, and I guess round up your dinner on the way home...

That seems like it would be a very interesting rifle to see. Do you have a picture. Maybe also the .44 Russian?