The fact is that you can only use a specific amount of level C or D sim time for the 1500 hrs and other ATP requirements. Those FTD's do not count as fligh time!

4:
I will admit I was a very low time hire at the regional I was at. It was a lot to swallow. I was flying an advanced Turboprop as well. This was 14 years ago, and I am telling you, the testing we intense to get that job. There were no low time hires. I had to jump through a lot of hoops. I was academically accomplished, had very good training grades and remarks, and not phase or certificate failures. In effect, I was one of four they chose.
Even with all of that, it was a lot of work, but I did it. Flash forward to 2000 hrs, and yep, I looked back and even admit that yep, I was probably to stupid to realize the a few extra 100 hrs in smaller planes would have been a very wise choice.
Flash forward to today, where I have over 9000 hrs, and I personally have a few issues with the Ab Initio industry. The "low time" pilots 10-15 years ago, were coming out of the top flight schools, with top marks, and top grades in the academic as well as flight portions of their instruction. Today, we have had places like ATA, Flight Safety, and other part 141 schools creat programs that had the sole purpose of training someone to fly SOP's. The training is good, but inconsistent.
As a former LCA, I can tell you that some 300 hr pilots could think and fly. Many were in their second career. (Age not hrs being the point one made above) Many more had a hard time at both. The most difficult thing for one of these pilots to do was a visual approach with no FD, AP, or ILS. Why? They never learned the basic basics in flight school and flying a bug smasher building hrs.

1500 hrs may not be the answer, but it does force pilots to go somewhere after Primary Flight Training and hone their skills. I think a mentoring program is a great idea. Docs watch over their interns as they perform procedures, and we should to. Problem is are you going to allow a 300 hr pilot to come in to the right seat with an established seniority number and do what they are doing no, with the possibility that they are moved along for the sake of business or are you going make that 300 hr pilot get 1500 hrs and take that possibility and know it down a few notches.
In the end that is the goal of this regulation. It is a Band Aid, and it will need to be approved upon, but given the sad state of affairs between pilots and their Association, we have other issues to deal with.
Step 1) We as pilots, all of us need to start taking responsibility for the direction this industry and profession are going. Pull the boot straps up
Step 2) Educate!
Step 3) Self regulate. We need to weed out pilots so that the government does not, for whatever reason slap laws like this on pilots.

I'm just gonna throw this out there, and I'm sure I'll be neutered for saying it, but I have to say the obvious. I know everybody on here absolutely abhors the "300 hr wonders" and you say that with great distaste. I am indifferent to the whole concept to be quite honest. I'm sure there are some pretty decent "300 hr wonders" who become magnificent pilots. And I'm sure there are some who never quite get it. But lets explore the facts. Whats more important, total hours or total hours in a particular aircraft? Lets say a pilot flys for Skywest based in LA, and flys LAX CLD LAX PSP LAX CLD all day every day. And lets say they build up 2000 hrs and gets a new gig out of CLE, flying CLE BUF CLE YQB. Are you going to tell me that his or her 2000 hrs in the desert makes them a better winter time pilot than the "300 hr wonder" that learned to fly at Kent State just south of Cleveland? We are so quick to broad brush an entire group of pilots and say that 1500 hrs will automatically make us safer. "Just ask the families of the Colgan victims" someone said. I could be wrong but wasnt the Colgan crash more about recognizing and responding to the emergency alerts in the Q400 as opposed to how many hours either pilot had? Why is the Colgan crash the poster child of new regulation? Shouldnt the regulations instead put emphasis on more aircraft training, more sim time, more CRM training? I agree that total hours should be higher of course, but this slamming of every pilot that didnt learn to fly "your way" is nuts. This country is far too reactionary. Not minimizing the Colgan crash, but it was one crash out of the hundreds of thousands of regional flights per year, and all of a sudden sweeping legislation must be passed? Forgive me for making this political, but everytime something happens in this Country, the folks in Washington think they need to legislate it. I doubt we will see fewer accidents as a result of this legislation. I doubt it will make a difference. It will do nothing but raise the cost of becoming a pilot to a level where no one can afford it. For a job that pays little to nothing. We will have to raise the age of retirement to 80 just to keep planes in the air. Maybe when the 50000 hr wonders start croaking of heart attacks inflight, they'll figure it out.

Well, you can raise the retirement age to keep the experience in the air, or you can raise the compensation at the bottom to attract the top talent at the regional level.;)

Weren't you a 300 hour ERAU wonder pilot..? :D

I agree, but only 2 or 3 airlines have made a profit in the last 10 years. Where is this extra cash going to come from to raise compensation? I'm looking at this objectively here. Red ink is being spewed across the pages of airline ledgers on the daily basis, just because congress mandates higher hours for pilots, doesnt mean that the airlines are going to follow with higher compensation. Basically we are on the road back to regulation if this is ever going to work. And given the last few months, I dont see why the airline industry shouldnt be govt controlled like everything else.

Have to say that 1500 hrs is not that much.
went to erau
flight instructed my last two years there and graduated with 1600 TT
flew freight for 6mo
went to a crap a$$ trubo-prop op that went out of buisiness.
Started 5 years earlier with 0 TT.

from 0-Major airline 11years. Not ludacris speed but not bad I think.

It can be done with some work. If you want it work for it.

But then again, I like boobies and beer and stuff too

Lets get really radical.

Let the airlines reimburse the government for pilots trained in a three hundred hour "cadet style" pilot training program. No college required. Stringent testing and screening for acceptance. Training in "aviation academics" and in high performance aircraft in "actual weather conditions." Mandatory wash out rate of 60%. Only those with proven flying skills and motivation graduate and are licensed. Airlines get the best of the best.

They can learn "how to spell" later when they become union reps. :eek:

I think Reese AFB (lubbock, TX) could be reopened quickly.:) Actually why not put then in current pilot training bases. For years the USAF trained 2'Lts and cadets on the same base.

There are some that have gone from 0 to major in less than five years. I would have done it in that time frame except for 9-11 and the RJ boom.

I'm not saying my dad's cooler than your dad...

if the cards fall right you could do it in 3.

Just saying that i don't think that the 1500hr min is that crazy.

I know guys that have. With the RJ Boom that is harder and harder unless the regionals keep reinventing themselves thus offering quick upgrades. If not then it will start to take considerably longer.

I know what you were saying, I was piggybacking your statement. I apologize that, that intention was misunderstood.

Let's say you raise an RJ F/O's starting salary to 50K to attract higher hour applicants. Captains make 80. How much do you think that would cost per ticket? I'm betting far less than a stupid checked bag fee.'m

several guys hired with me were 3 years at the regionals, timing is everything. I had a friend that went to ASA in the late 90s at 500 hrs, 1 yr 120 FO, 1 yr RJ FO, next year Delta 727 FO, next year Delta 756 FO... Next year furloughed. His timing was perfect, but you can't predict 9/11s.

$50K starting FO is spot on. Captains should be around $80K. That's 100% right but sadly if CRJ200s and ERJ145 casms are already bad enough to cause carriers to start parking them and changing the guaranteed profit margins then my guess is any increase in casm will cause more to be parked and 1500 hrs to be hired becomes a moot pipe dream.

Not to mention the biggest BS of all and that's current pilots fighting new hire pay increases that don't include them getting raises. When I was hired in 2000 at Coex I got plenty of Captains who didn't think it was fair that I didn't have PFT and the company paid for our hotels, albeit they didn't pay us until we passed either the end of training or the start of ioe. Had that been up for a vote I'm not sure the coex pilots would have allowed pft to be eliminated.

As to what ACL said in his post, he is 100% correct, we should self regulate as pilots, as unions. That's the capitalists solution to this, although it may not sound like it at first.

Heyas,

The fact that Congress has to get involved to mandate pilot times for 121 operators is a symptom of something far worse.

Nu

Agreed, Nu.

FtB;
I would have been a 1 year FO, 1-2 year CA if things would not have stopped either. Timing is everything. No complaints here.

I hear you. I got word I'd be upgrading to CLE SRJ Captain (two different erj pay rates) at 1.5 years in the company. Found that out on 9/10/01. By the end of the week it was "what's a flow back?"

I'm not necessarily opposed to re-regulation, but more to the point on your first couple of sentences: WHO CARES??? The baboons in charge didn't hire me to run the airline. If they are too stupid to raise fares to a survivable level, then Darwin needs to take over. Excessive concern over management stupidity is one factor in how we've gotten to where we currently are.

I just sent a letter to the alumni department at ERAU expressing my disgust at their attempt to derail this bill in the interest of profit.

I would encourage other alumns to do the same.

I'm currently attending ERAU worldwide and have occupied both seats at my 121, and I support this rule with no loopholes. ATP to be an Airline Transport Pilot. End of story.

YES, YES, YES.............AWESOME POST!!!!!!!!

UH...NO!!!:) I've been instructing here for almost 4 years and now have around 1600 TT, 650 Multi, 600 X-C, and around 120 Instrument (due to the desert weather of Prescott :D) I'm proud to say that I am not nor was I ever a 300 hour wonder. I will admit however that I was hired by Republic at 850 total and around 200 multi but while in training my class was stopped due to the Frontier bankruptcy. And I am SO glad that happened. In the 800 hours I have accumulated since then I have learned so much more than I knew when I was hired. I even had the opportunity (not by choice) to declare an emergency due to a lost cylinder. I would have never learned those things had my training not been cancelled. And realizing how much more I learned made me a very strong believer in the 1500/ATP rule. The more you learn the better the pilot!

I am so glad to know that there are still alumni as well as other pilots out there like the both of you! Seeing some of the students that go through these programs recently really makes me concerned about the future of aviation. But knowing that there will be pilots like you and me, Military trained pilots, as well as those that have trained in the civilian world desiring to make aviation safer, willing to smack those cocky young 'uns back into line makes me feel that much better about the future of our industry, thank you all!!!

If the 1500 hours stand, the regionals will have to raise salaries to attract pilots with those hours, and that will help everyone. Those pilots will leave their cargo jobs flying caravans or whatever, and flight instructors who want a change can try those caravan jobs. The caliber of pilots in the regional level will increase, and that will be safer for everyone, and hopefully they will be paid better at the same time.

50K for a first year RJ F/O? I disagree. I can see that for a year 3 or 4 RJ F/O, but definitely not for a new-hire.

Ha 50K, heck even at DAL it was less than 30K for the first year. 50 bucks an hr but that training pay gets a lot of people.

I agree it needs to go up way up. First year FO on probation needs to be near 40 an hr. for a regional and about 70 an hr for a major.

I disagree with your disagreement.

The job costs what it costs. Either the regionals adjust their business model to compensate or go tango uniform.

Nu

And who says we shouldn't get $50k first year? We are paid what we are willing to get paid for. The reason pilot pay is where it's at is because there's no shortage of people willing to do it. If they had to, you can bet the airlines would be paying us all $200k if that's what it took. Of course, flying is fun, cool, and beats working for a living. Then throw in almost a decade of bad years and it's no wonder we're all just happy to be getting what we can.

Then you have a case of Stockholm syndrome.

$50K/year is not at all out of line for a first year F/O operating a 50 (or more) passenger turbojet. It's not out of line for a corporate pilot operating an eight passenger turbojet as an F/O, and the skill level and competence required should be the same for both positions - there is NO reason (other than short sighted greed) why a regional F/O should not have similar compensation.

I'm sure the management morons are apoplectic at the possible implications of this legislation (particularly those at Gulfstream). Hopefully a few of them will soon be in line to sign up for unemployment, they've certainly earned it.

Airlines are like any other business when it comes to passing laws costing them money, the only person who's going to lose or pay will be the consumers and employees. I am sure the airlines don't care which one is first to walk the plank.

Give me a break with your weak and empty if/then non sequitur statements. If I used the same method for discussion, I could say that you have a case of sense of entitlement with a victim mentality. I have no problem with a disagreement or even being proven wrong. However, I do have a problem with irrelevant cheap-shot fallacious debate tactics.

You answered your own question. The pay is based on what the market will bear. I'm not one to just be happy with getting what I can. However, I am pretty darn sure that a fresh puppy mill grad isn't worth 50k for the first year or second year. Just because legislation is passed to require 1500 hours for the same job doesn't raise their worth that much. i.e. I believe a 135 Navajo or King Air PIC is far more valuable in terms of responsibility as well as revenue, than a new-hire F/O at a regional.

And has much more responsibility. I have flown both 121 and 135 and pic of any 135 operation requires far more from a pilot then a 121 sic. Even a King Air or a Navajo. Single pilot Pic in a King Air is some of the hardest flying I have done, much easier then Saab 340 SIC. IMO

A fresh puppy mill grad shouldn't be getting a job as a 121 FO. They need some time in the "real world," making decisions, bearing responsibility, gaining experience they won't get at a 121 carrier - in line with the rest of your post.

And I would agree with you, given the way things are currently structured. As you know, this wasn't always the case - once upon a time pilots cut their teeth flying 135, then moved on to 121. Changing the mark to 1500 hours MAY (certainly not a sure thing) help move things back in that direction. At the very least, it makes it much more difficult to spend six or eight months at a puppy mill and come out the other side a certificated but functionally useless and completely inexperienced 121 F/O.

I keep saying it (and I think we agree) that the right seat of a 121 aircraft is NOT the place to gain experience just beyond your commercial certificate.

Absolutely - which is why people should be gaining experience in those more challenging environments and then bringing that experience to 121 level. That's what the public thinks they are getting (and rightfully so). If costs need to increase to attract those people, then so be it - even if it means a few less people will travel. Air carrier ops have historically achieved an enviable safety record not because every fool who could drop $80K cash was suddenly minted an airline pilot and turned loose on the unsuspecting public. It came about in part because those who made it to 121 ops had acquired years of experience which they brought with them. Hopefully this change will bring about some degree of a shift back towards that model.

Riddle breeds pilots to send them to the airlines. Nothing more. I dont remember going over anything 135 in all my days there.

And as a Riddle grad, Im for the increase in flight experience (well short of the time)...but that means you all at the stage in the game to make a jump to the airlines shouldnt settle for the low pay of the 1st year FO we see today. Whats that whole...set an example thing...

Sounds like so many young "daddy's girls" I've seen entering this profession lately... Just the other day I was near a well known flight school where a early 20's skinny blonde gal with an ill fitting pilot style uniform on was getting lunch.... we both left at the same time where she proceeded to get into a new (or close to new) BMW 550i presumably to drive back to the school....

Gone are the days of "Airmen" ... now it's highest bidders and who can afford to work for free... :rolleyes:

Well said man! Now lets do the right thing here and get some passion and professionalism back into the industry. Stat!

I assure you when the public becomes informed that no airline can touch you until after you've logged 1500 hours, and after you wait 6 years and have spent 100,000 dollars you might get offered a prop gig out of fargo paying somewhere in the area of 19,000 per year. I highly doubt there will be a huge influx of highschoolers racing to join such a profession.

Here's the thing though, 1500 hours is not an insurmountable obstacle. I started flying in high school with the money I made working at places like McDonalds. By my sophomore year of college I had my CFI, and had over 1000 hours total time by my senior year.

It's not impossible, but it's going to take time, and dedication. If I had been staring down the barrel of a 1500 hour requirement, I could've flown even more and worked harder.

I will roll in with many of the other Riddle grads and say, the higher minimums should stand. Riddle is wrong. When you have 300-1000 hours, you just don't know what you don't know; if that makes sense.

Its not a slam on the experience or intelligence of those pilots, we were all there before we were here. Ultimately, the safety of my family, my friends, and above all, me, while Im sleeping on my commute takes supreme precedence. One of my mentors buried his child from the Colgan incident. Do you honestly think anyone could sit in audience with ERAU, my alma mater, and take their side in an argument with a victims family over the need for experience? Do you think any 121 Captain doesn't want to see more experience in the right seat?

This is not an experiment, or a flying club. Professional strength quality is the only measure of this industry. Everything else is a bad headline.

We want you here, we just want you here with a little more time under your belt.

I was at that meeting in DLC. At least they had free pizza! :)

No but seriously, as an ERAU student, I'm all for the 1500/ATP. It would definitely help point the industry in the right direction. I plan on getting my CFI and working my way up that way in the near future.

The kicker was how he was saying that at 500 TT you will be as good as you will ever get in your career, which even I know isn't true.

I wonder who wrote those answers on that green paper, but I think it's funny how ERAU is telling the students exactly what to write, word for word, on that website to fight the bill.

Who said that you were as good as you were ever going to get at 500TT?:eek:

USMCFLYR