ERAU trying to STOP the 1500hr requirement!
 

I'll come right out and say it, I am currently an Instructor for ERAU and today they had a meeting for all of the flight students about the notice of proposed rulemaking. They printed out the Docket for the students but also printed out another paper TELLING the students what they should say in their comments to the FAA. Of the answers given to the students were that 1500 hrs and age 23 is not necessary because of the fact that "thousands of pilots have entered the Part 121 work force as first officers with less than 1500 hrs and younger than age 23", that the students should say yes to the ATP knowledge requirements but again no to the 1500 hrs, that there should be less minimums required for accredited schools (obviously they would say that), that students graduating from an accredited school should be able to enter a Part 121 job with only 550 hours and only 100 as a CFI, and that 750 hours to gain a commercial certificate is too high!

We as airline and future airline pilots need to counteract these comments by submitting our own saying why the rule NEEDS to be 1500 hrs and an ATP. We all know that the accredited schools are pushing hard against this rule because they will lose money. Well I personally would rather know that the First Officer sitting next to me when I am a Captain, or the First Officer sitting in the front of the plane that my family and I are flying on has the experience and skill needed to fly that aircraft! The Captains first priority flying an airliner is to get those passengers safely to their destination, NOT babysitting a 200 - 500 hour pilot that doesn't even know what a hot start is!

The end of the proposed rule making is April 9th, please, during a layover, sitting on reserve, or when you come home from a trip, please take the time to send your comments in to get this rule to pass. Not only will it provide more safety to the industry, but I think we all know that eventually this will help improve the current state of our industry. Here is the web address to the comment portion of this rule: Regulations.gov

All you need to do is click on the "Submit a Comment" button on the right side, put in your information and enter your comments. Please let’s do this to save the industry from the downward spiral it's in. Just say no to Shiny Jet Syndrome :D and let’s make all those desiring to be airline pilots work for it the way we have. Thank You!

Makes sense for ERAU and the students to fight this. No one is going to fork over money for this. We are a society of instant gratification and waiting two to three years to gain that time is not going to be good for the school or those students.

Wow.

What a...surprise.

No, I mean it.

Really....

Nu

Ain't that the truth, but if this rule passes at least it will weed out those who got into flying just to have mommy and daddy pay for the training so they can start making a quick.......$18,000 flying shiny jets. Now we will only have those that really want to tough it out and pay their dues like we did for the real reason for flying.....for the desire! :) (I guess making $100,000 a year by the time we retire doesn't hurt either but at least we will know we worked for it)

the argument could be made that the individual you describe who will endure anything to fly is equally if not more responsible for the demise of pay, scope, and work rules in our industry.

I would agree that increasing legal requirements for pilot training helps protect ourselves against replacement. However, with the fragmentation of the regional industry I'm not sure that is even the case anymore. Today I sat in a terminal and looked at 3 crjs flown by 3 different operators for 1 major airline, all parked right next to eachother! If any one of those operators went on strike, the other 2 (and surely more) would quickly pick up their slack. With this kind of thing going on all throughout our industry pilots are easy to replace even before you factor in what the street hiring requirements are.

Clearly a multi-faceted problem that has no single solution, but with safety being the bottom line I'm convinced that 1500 hours is a reasonable requirement.

The families of the people who died in the Colgan Dash-8-400 crash have more political power than the ERAU people. They have spear-headed this movement, and won't finish until real saftey regulations are in place. A huge step forward was Oberstar's unwillingness to allow an 800 hour requirement, and sending it back for 1500 hours. That is huge in itself.

I see your point :), that wasn't my intention though. I was trying to describe those that instruct for 4 years to gain Part 135 or possibly ATP mins to get a 135 cargo flying job to then obtain more experience and possible the 1000 PIC turbine required for an eventual job at the Majors.

True and I back them up 110%!!! And it's rare that we hear this about a Congressman, but I am exstatic about Oberstar's decision and how he is sticking to his guns!

Actually, the really rich ones will just buy small airplanes. Had one guy buy one off a buddy of mine for a large sum. His sole reason was to get the time that would be required when he got out of school.

It will squeeze those that do not have the means to pay for 1500 hrs. There are some great jobs out there, and with this in place it will create a lot of turnover in other positions besides Instructors at the flight farms.

My dad works for a major airline and he was telling me about this one pilot who's husband bought her a little twin jet so she could build her multi turbine PIC.

I hope this 1500 hour requirement sticks. It's about time that entry into this line of work (I hesitate to call it a profession or a career any more) is somewhat regulated... no more 300-hour wonders getting into the right seat of a regional plane.

And if she doesn't kill herself, she may actually learn something along the way. Probably not as much as if she had to get a real job, say flying 135 in all sorts of weather, not just cherry picking nice days to go fly; but she will still have learned more than if she got hired with 600 hours.

Good points. In my opinion this won't account for very many people that want to become career pilots.

This new rule makes one pay their dues one way or another. The extremely wealthy that have very little value for an airline pilot will always be trying to get to the position. At least with this new rule they will have to get the experience whether they have to pay money for it or work for some one they will still be gaining experience. And hopefully sometime before they reach enough time to get their ATP they will realize that a pilot job isn't for them.

Just hope this doesn't create massive amounts of pencil whipping. Then again I guess it's pretty hard to fake 1500 hours worth of flying. The resumé will tell the true story. Saying you bought a 152 and flew it around the pattern to build time will not win you any points in an interview.

Just for conversation, lets assume 2 pilots. A 21 year old who gets hired at a jet regional with 300point1 hours and a multi rating vs. pilot #2, a 27 year old who worked in the same part 121 school he learned to fly at, building time until he reached 1500 hours.

I think that a few months later at 700 hours, the lower time pilot that had some exposure to working in the 121 environment (consider ground schools, in-doc and sim and IOE training) might be a better all around pilot after training and a few short months on the line, than the 1500 hour pilot who spent all of his time teaching at a 121 school under the supervision of a program manager that picks the days they can or cant fly due to weather. All this guy knows is the training environment.

What happened to all the discussion about a mentoring program?

Doesn't UAL have tons of experience and statistical documentation on successful and safe low time pilot hiring/development/integration that should be able to flush this bill?

Of course erau is going to try to make a case for lowering the bar, their business model practically depends on it. They actually try to trick people into thinking that if they go to erau they will be better pilots, nothing could be further from the truth.

I've flown with guys that came from all walks of life including erau, and you could not tell the difference period. This isn't open to interpretations, or opinions. Going to erau or any other aviation college does not make a better pilot, classroom time does not substitute aircraft time, and they know it. It has been proven statistically, that no amount of theory in a classroom can measure up to real life experience.

It's 1500 hrs guys. Get use to it! You're going to have to work for it, the "glory" days of paying erau 100K for a job are gone....welcome to the party guys, grab a hat and slice of humble pie and get in line with the rest of the folks.

Are you trying to compare the 300 hour hire with 400 hours line experience to the 1500 hour guy on day one? Sure the guy with more line experience will be better.

The more apt comparison is both pilots (300 hr vs. 1500 hr. hire), each after 400 hours line experience, or even better: which one is better prepared after 30 hours of OE, signed off and ready to fly the line?

I'd put my money on the 1500 hour guy.

P.S. I assume you mean Part "141" school, don't know many Part "121" flight schools out there.

The problem with the pilot who's lived his entire career in 121 ops is that they are too sheltered. You aren't really thrown to the wolves to either sink or swim in that environment.

The ERAU grads will have to go fly FedEx Caravans or fly for AmFlight to get their time to go to RJs, pure and simple. And regional airlines will have to increase pay scales to get current FedEx Caravan pilots to leave their jobs to go fly an RJ.

As an ERAU Alumni I find this very disturbing! I actually think that the ATP min of 1500 is WAY to low but that's a whole nother thread!

This is absolutely correct.
At an airline you never get to do anything that will build true stick and rudder skills.
Instructing for the 1500 hours will teach you much more about really flying airplanes.

On the contrary, the really smart and broke ones will go this way and save themselves a bundle. Pair up with a partner or two, work while you train and come out on the other side w/o a dime in loans. It can be done. Who do you think wants to be the pilot more, the person that takes out a 150K loan to buy some time/certificates at the prestigious aviation school or the person with the entrepreneurial fortitude to get it done the non-traditional way without loans? It takes a lot of perseverance, effort and smarts to get your own plane, take care of it, line up your own instructors, study on your own and stay flying all while working a full time job.

Can you go straight from a C208B or PA31 to UAL/AMR/CAL/DAL?

If not, then there will be plenty of pilots to leave a 208B death trap or PA31 to go to a regoinal, thus pay doesn't need to come up. All thats occuring is you are delaying the hiring of the same people. Pay didn't have to come up in the 1990s when you needed a lot of time to get hired to fly J31s or 1900Ds, it came up in the 2000s but out came the whipsaws, and it probably won't go in the 2010s.

Lower Part 135 PIC mins in cargo only Part 23 aircraft and increase the distance, and therein hiring incentive, from Part 135 PIC qualified to Part 121 qualiifed. No Airnet or Ameriflite or whoever is going to hire a pilot who they know won't stay longer than 300 hours and no pilot will apply for that character building Part 135 freight job knowing they're right around the corner from 1500. So, cut the mins in 1/2 to near what Part 135 VFR is. Its simple, quick, doable.

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BTW, what's the latest, if true, with Mesaba or Pinnacle or whichever regional wanted to raise FO starting wages and the union is fighting them because wage increases should be across the board? Hmm, if true, who says regionals will increase pay to attract FOs?

I think the 27 year old would be a much wiser choice. That 27 year old doesn't just fly the pattern as you think. That 1500 hour CFI has been building PIC experience AND instructional/mentoring experience that will serve that CFI well when he/she upgrades at his airline. The 300 hour pilot will be JUST starting to learn what being a PIC is about in IOE and with other FO's. I strongly disagree with the notion that the being in charge of a multimillion dollar jet and having lives of 50-90 people behind you is the place to be learning the basics of being a pilot-in-command.

So you should have your life threatened to validate your ability to fly 121?

To me that just validates an applicants inability to make wise choices. I've never had my life threatened, ended up just fine. Sure I had a few students here and there with issues... but we just climbed to a higher altitude and tried whateve it was we were doing again. Never applied to nor took a job flying questionable planes in questionable situations.

I'd have no problem with having a CFI and CFII requirement for any Part 135/121 job. No more running from the CFI.

The mins for any Part 121 job should be 7000 hours with 5000 multi turbine, therein less than me, plus a CFI and CFII. :)

And nobody understands instrument flying better than a CFII. Someone that has had to teach the same thing 10 different ways to the same person multiplied by the number of students.

I've never been a CFI/II. Matter of fact, I sort of ran from it because I didn't want to be an instructor at that time in my flying career. I am also sure that I could translate my experience into the P135/121 world. My peers have been doing it for quite some time and most of them didn't have a CFI/II/MEI prior to getting that P121 job.

I think there are multiple ways to skin that cat called experience - and each have their pros and cons. I think it would be wrong to limit the avenues of approach available.

USMCFLYR

Good post, Sir!

BINGO!

Standby.... yep... BINGO!!!

I think determining if someone is qualified should be left to the airlines. More to come but first, USMC, I'm being a smart aleck with the CFI requirement and doing so for a reason.

People keep tacking on new requirements so I want to tack on some too and since I was proud to be a CFI, everyone should have to do it the same way I did. :rolleyes:

Everyone thinks 1500 hours will solve the issues, I'm alone in my stance that it won't and will probably create a lot of other issues. I think an enormous amount of group think is going on here and I don't mind standing against it especially since its coming from many who've already gotten a 121 job.

Because the problem isn't a lack of pilot hours because again I'll say its ATPs that crash Part 121 airliners. How many hours does a USN pilot (or the more Chuck Norris like USMC pilot) have when they become carrier qualified? The problem is a lack of standards in the FAA, OPs Specs and therein in the airlines when it comes to training, testing and evaluations.

I'm also for a non-government certification board. You want to fly non board certified (BC) pilots, go for it, wait til that USA Today article comes out and says XYZ airline is the only one that doesn't hire BC pilots. I like the idea of a new and improved ATP written, for starters. I'm also for Part 135 PIC being dropped if 1500TT & ATP becomes a minimum.

You're not alone in your belief, it's just not really an argument worth making imo as the herd has spoken on this one.

Sorry then...I didn't realize that you were trying to make a point with the statement with the CFI required comment. I've seen that idea floated many times before on the boards and it usually comes from former CFIs. I thought you were agreeing with that line of thinking and I was attempting to show a different perspective.

I'm not sure what they have now, but there will be others that can answer that question. I had 440 hrs (due to some civilian time before the military) before I qual'ed in the T-2C. My roommate at the time, who had NO previous flight experience prior to FAM-1 in Primary qual'ed with about 150 hrs. Now after saying that, I'll also point out that those same students by the time they got to my phase of training after getting their wings (with about 200 hrs I think) still had a lot of problems with some basic skills - Basic Air Work and Situational Awareness most often. They would have NO place anywhere near a P121 (and certainly not a P135 single person cockpit) for that matter in my opinion.

Yes I believe the military trains to a very high standard - for a specific purpose.

I am a fan of the 1,500 hr rule for entrance into the P121 world. I have not really thought of the lowering of minimums for P135 VFR/IFR, but it is an interesting idea if it would not compromise the safety of those operations and still provide the needed experience for later entry into the airlines.

USMCFLYR

Even if they had the ability to resurrect the deceased, it wouldn't be enough this time around.

Perhaps he was talking about the 121 regionals hiring lowtime pilots and then having them learn basic flying skills while flying the line.:D

The issue is not between the 300 hour pilot versus the 1500 hour pilot, but between a 21 year old versus a 27 year old.

The thing is that places like ERAU are shifting from Part 141 flight schools to Part 142 flight schools. What this means is even less time in the air and more time in a simulator.

Yep, simulators are great, but they do not simulate the experience of doing something stupid and surviving it. Simulators are a controlled environment whereas the real world is, well, real.

Ref Below:

FAR Part 141

Pilot School Requirements

This part prescribes the requirements issuing pilot school certificates and the general operating rules applicable to a holder of such a certificate.

For example:

Flight instructors must be certified under Part 141 to be able to teach students enrolled in such a course.

A FAR Part 141 pilot school can offer a private or commercial pilot course with less than the hours required under Part 61.

FAR Part 142

Aviation Training Centers

This part prescribes the rules governing the certification and operation of aviation training centers and provides an alternative means to accomplish training required for a pilot certificate.

For example:

Training accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certified under FAR Part 142 of this chapter using an approved flight simulator or approved flight training device (FTD) representing the category, class, and type, if applicable, of aircraft appropriate to the rating sought.

Nah, I'm sorry USMC, I was being too much of a smart aleck. :D

Happens at 2am.

NO I do not believe the CFI or CFII should be a requirement.

Airline I work for has 300 hour pilots flying A330s and B777s and serve as Second Officers on A340s and B747s, and they do a fine job. They are all very very good at theory and procedures, with very little exposure (300 hours) to stick and rudder. It is the training program, along with the quality and drive of the student that determines the quality of the final product.

You are all fooling yourselves if you think that a 1500 hour rule is going to "raise the bar" as far as pay and work rules for regional pilots. The only thing that would accomplish that would be pilots actually looking out for the group as a whole instead of each individual looking out for himself.

FO

ACL, I was talking to some folks that were looking at those Frasca FTD sims with the wrap around visuals for Auburn because the high cost of renting aircraft. The end result was the cost for some of those nice sims is very high per hour, not as high as an airplane, but not as cheap as we'd like to see.

Just too bad. If a school would eat the cost of the sim and make it dirt cheap for the students it'd be to the students educational benefit, imo. If they're not, then the students are paying a lot.

I never said you should have your life threatened. I did say you should work in an environment where you aren't spoon fed everything, where YOU are the one who has to make the hard decisions, and where you may make mistakes and learn from them WITHOUT having 50+ paying passengers in back who think they bought a ticket on a mainline flown by pilots with thousands of hours and years of experience.

Here's one question I'd like ERAU to answer:

In the country like the US where we have surplus of experienced pilots, why should the flying public accept lowering the safety margins by taking your graduates at bare mins when they could just as easily hire those with experience?

As a proud ERAU grad, I know I can build the best paper airplanes and I can tell you all about the high speed aluminum tubing. Yet, I can thank Ameriflight for really teaching me how to fly and be a pilot-in-command.