John & Martha King Detained!
08-30-2010, 07:36 PM
#1
A Second Past V1
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
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Posts: 743
John & Martha King Detained!
That picture of Martha hands up is an instant classic...
~~~~~~~~~
King Incident The Second Case Of Mistaken Identity
King Incident The Second Case Of Mistaken Identity
John and Martha King's brush with the authorities in Santa Barbara on Saturday is apparently the second time this airplane has been detained and its pilot questioned because it shares an N-number with a Cessna 150 stolen eight years ago. According to aviation blogger Max Trescott, former Cessna employee Jim Pitman picked up the factory-fresh Skyhawk in Independence and flew it to Wichita for meetings. On landing he was met by Wichita police who quickly ironed out the mixup and sent him on his way. Why that didn't trigger an update to the databases that were consulted to create the situation in Santa Barbara is a question sure to come up as aviation group leaders, including AOPA President Craig Fuller, demand answers from authorities over the treatment of the Kings. As we reported earlier, aviation's most prominent husband and wife team is calling on government agencies to keep their databases up to date and warning pilots and aircraft owners they could be next to be surrounded by heavily armed police, handcuffed and detained because of a bit of miscommunication.
The Kings spent about 30 scary minutes in the custody of Santa Barbara, Calif., police at the Santa Barbara Airport. As in the incident in Wichita, authorities thought their leased Cessna 172 was a Cessna 150 that had been stolen eight years previously in Texas. The 172, which is owned by Cessna Aircraft, was assigned the N-number (50545) of the stolen 150 in 2009, years after the FAA had cancelled that registration on the 150. Apparently no one told the El Paso Intelligence Center, an arm of the Drug Enforcement Agency, and other government departments that keeps tabs on, among other things, flights of stolen aircraft. A quick check of the FAA database would have revealed the current registration and shown the cancelled one. That didn't happen because when the Kings filed IFR for their flight from San Diego to meet friends in Santa Barbara, the local police were alerted to intercept the aircraft when it landed. As Martha King told us in the accompanying podcast, what followed was, in her opinion, unnecessarily dangerous and uncomfortable.
King says they were approached by police prepared for the worst, with guns drawn and others taking cover behind the doors of the four police cars that responded. Although anyone who has met the Kings would describe them as anything but threatening in appearance and demeanor, the police took no chances and maintained their aggressive stance through the ordeal. "I would have thought at that point when they got us out it would have ratcheted down quite a bit because I don't think we exactly look like your typical airplane thief," she said. The Kings were not hurt and the airplane was not damaged. The police did not apologize but did justify their actions by saying it was a report that had to be checked out, King said. The Kings said they went public with their experience in hopes that law enforcement agencies will double-check stolen aircraft reports and to warn pilots that there's a chance their N-number could come up under similar circumstances.
~~~~~~~~~
King Incident The Second Case Of Mistaken Identity
King Incident The Second Case Of Mistaken Identity
John and Martha King's brush with the authorities in Santa Barbara on Saturday is apparently the second time this airplane has been detained and its pilot questioned because it shares an N-number with a Cessna 150 stolen eight years ago. According to aviation blogger Max Trescott, former Cessna employee Jim Pitman picked up the factory-fresh Skyhawk in Independence and flew it to Wichita for meetings. On landing he was met by Wichita police who quickly ironed out the mixup and sent him on his way. Why that didn't trigger an update to the databases that were consulted to create the situation in Santa Barbara is a question sure to come up as aviation group leaders, including AOPA President Craig Fuller, demand answers from authorities over the treatment of the Kings. As we reported earlier, aviation's most prominent husband and wife team is calling on government agencies to keep their databases up to date and warning pilots and aircraft owners they could be next to be surrounded by heavily armed police, handcuffed and detained because of a bit of miscommunication.
The Kings spent about 30 scary minutes in the custody of Santa Barbara, Calif., police at the Santa Barbara Airport. As in the incident in Wichita, authorities thought their leased Cessna 172 was a Cessna 150 that had been stolen eight years previously in Texas. The 172, which is owned by Cessna Aircraft, was assigned the N-number (50545) of the stolen 150 in 2009, years after the FAA had cancelled that registration on the 150. Apparently no one told the El Paso Intelligence Center, an arm of the Drug Enforcement Agency, and other government departments that keeps tabs on, among other things, flights of stolen aircraft. A quick check of the FAA database would have revealed the current registration and shown the cancelled one. That didn't happen because when the Kings filed IFR for their flight from San Diego to meet friends in Santa Barbara, the local police were alerted to intercept the aircraft when it landed. As Martha King told us in the accompanying podcast, what followed was, in her opinion, unnecessarily dangerous and uncomfortable.
King says they were approached by police prepared for the worst, with guns drawn and others taking cover behind the doors of the four police cars that responded. Although anyone who has met the Kings would describe them as anything but threatening in appearance and demeanor, the police took no chances and maintained their aggressive stance through the ordeal. "I would have thought at that point when they got us out it would have ratcheted down quite a bit because I don't think we exactly look like your typical airplane thief," she said. The Kings were not hurt and the airplane was not damaged. The police did not apologize but did justify their actions by saying it was a report that had to be checked out, King said. The Kings said they went public with their experience in hopes that law enforcement agencies will double-check stolen aircraft reports and to warn pilots that there's a chance their N-number could come up under similar circumstances.
09-01-2010, 11:47 AM
#3
A Second Past V1
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
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Follow up article says theyll help the SBPD with training for this type of issue, for future midday 172 drug runs.
Kings To Help Develop Police Aviation Training
I, however take more comfort in this:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/2339/79698810.jpg
Kings To Help Develop Police Aviation Training
I, however take more comfort in this:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/2339/79698810.jpg
09-01-2010, 12:23 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Yes because the gov't has no agency that has any experience with stopping drug airplanes or arresting the occupants (thinking DEA and CBP for starters).
Plus - the real issue here is the bad information that led to thinking this was a drug airplane - not how it was handled. The police should have responded in kind to a potential threat. I'm not seeing Martha face down on the concrete with the gun pointed at the nape of her neck here.
USMCFLYR
Plus - the real issue here is the bad information that led to thinking this was a drug airplane - not how it was handled. The police should have responded in kind to a potential threat. I'm not seeing Martha face down on the concrete with the gun pointed at the nape of her neck here.
USMCFLYR
09-01-2010, 01:01 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,192
Originally Posted by Outlaw2097
Follow up article says theyll help the SBPD with training for this type of issue, for future midday 172 drug runs.
Kings To Help Develop Police Aviation Training
I, however take more comfort in this:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/2339/79698810.jpg
Kings To Help Develop Police Aviation Training
I, however take more comfort in this:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/2339/79698810.jpg
If the cops were going off the info they were given (stolen plane) in the post 9/11 world we live in, I'd say they probably responded with the appropriate level of response. Did they expect a warm welcome and a "hey can we ask you a question?"
Awesome demotivational poster.
09-01-2010, 01:49 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: E-175 FO
Posts: 72
All else aside, personally I've grown weary of hearing the "Post 9/11 world" statement. You can't justify totalitarian behavior, civil rights violations (Not saying these occurred) and the like by simply dropping that line in there. While you _might_, might be able to reasonably use it about a suspected terrorist, it's certainly not reasonable to hold a 'suspected drug bust' to the same standard.
I'm not speaking to any details of the situation, but of the attitude that "9/11" justifies any behavior on the part of law enforcement. This is wrong and fallacious.
What's wrong with a warm welcome? 'Howdy! Mind if I ask you a couple questions? This isn't really a request...'? It works for some of the most effective police forces in the civilized world, and it's worked in this country, on-and-off, for years. Mentally disarming a suspect by barraging them with shouted orders is certainly appropriate in some situations. It most certainly is not appropriate in all situations--failure in civility is a basic failure in discretion.
I've seen "post 9/11 world" used as justification in escalation of force situations that resulted in the death, injury, or arrest of innocent people who in some way failed to properly comply with officer instructions. When you have four armed officers shouting at you, often with conflicting orders, and you haven't the foggiest clue why, confusion is an obvious response.
Anyway, I'm not trying to hij... er.. 7500 this thread, but personally I feel that law enforcement, based on their position and power, should be held to the highest standard of civility and discretion, and hired accordingly. It is regrettable that the LE establishment has placed different priorities on the hiring of personnel.
I do not know the details of the situation in SB beyond the original article, and I do not watch 'podcasts'--My response is based solely on the "post 9/11 world" comment.
~Fox
I'm not speaking to any details of the situation, but of the attitude that "9/11" justifies any behavior on the part of law enforcement. This is wrong and fallacious.
What's wrong with a warm welcome? 'Howdy! Mind if I ask you a couple questions? This isn't really a request...'? It works for some of the most effective police forces in the civilized world, and it's worked in this country, on-and-off, for years. Mentally disarming a suspect by barraging them with shouted orders is certainly appropriate in some situations. It most certainly is not appropriate in all situations--failure in civility is a basic failure in discretion.
I've seen "post 9/11 world" used as justification in escalation of force situations that resulted in the death, injury, or arrest of innocent people who in some way failed to properly comply with officer instructions. When you have four armed officers shouting at you, often with conflicting orders, and you haven't the foggiest clue why, confusion is an obvious response.
Anyway, I'm not trying to hij... er.. 7500 this thread, but personally I feel that law enforcement, based on their position and power, should be held to the highest standard of civility and discretion, and hired accordingly. It is regrettable that the LE establishment has placed different priorities on the hiring of personnel.
I do not know the details of the situation in SB beyond the original article, and I do not watch 'podcasts'--My response is based solely on the "post 9/11 world" comment.
~Fox
09-01-2010, 03:03 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Yes Foxy - Many things get thrown under the "post-9/11" clause.
That is why at one airport my shoes have to be OUTSIDE the bin to go through the x-ray, but at other airports they can be in the SAME bin as my jacket (e.g.)
I don't have a background in LE, but IN THIS CASE (and I know you didn't single this case out in your post), if the police had been given a description of a car speeding away full of armed bank robbers or known drug suspects - they would have stopped that car and acted in the same manner until they found out that the description of the car was wrong
I am sure if the police stopped such a suspected vehicle (which this plane was at the time - wrongfully - but not their fault), I'm pretty sure that they would not be approaching the car with smiles and a warm welcome.
I'm also wondering if something similar were to happen to ME, if I would get a personal phone call from the Chief of Police profusely apologizing? It is ok though - I'd really rather not find out!!
There are current, and former, LEO on this board. Maybe they will chime in and give us their opinion of how the police handled this particular case.
USMCFLYR
That is why at one airport my shoes have to be OUTSIDE the bin to go through the x-ray, but at other airports they can be in the SAME bin as my jacket (e.g.)
I don't have a background in LE, but IN THIS CASE (and I know you didn't single this case out in your post), if the police had been given a description of a car speeding away full of armed bank robbers or known drug suspects - they would have stopped that car and acted in the same manner until they found out that the description of the car was wrong
I am sure if the police stopped such a suspected vehicle (which this plane was at the time - wrongfully - but not their fault), I'm pretty sure that they would not be approaching the car with smiles and a warm welcome.
I'm also wondering if something similar were to happen to ME, if I would get a personal phone call from the Chief of Police profusely apologizing? It is ok though - I'd really rather not find out!!
There are current, and former, LEO on this board. Maybe they will chime in and give us their opinion of how the police handled this particular case.
USMCFLYR
09-01-2010, 04:10 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I don't have a background in LE, but IN THIS CASE (and I know you didn't single this case out in your post), if the police had been given a description of a car speeding away full of armed bank robbers or known drug suspects - they would have stopped that car and acted in the same manner until they found out that the description of the car was wrong
I am sure if the police stopped such a suspected vehicle (which this plane was at the time - wrongfully - but not their fault), I'm pretty sure that they would not be approaching the car with smiles and a warm welcome.
I am sure if the police stopped such a suspected vehicle (which this plane was at the time - wrongfully - but not their fault), I'm pretty sure that they would not be approaching the car with smiles and a warm welcome.
Not only that but - a 9 year old case...wouldn't the CBP/DEA handle that one...especially involving aircraft?
...could be wrong, but don't LEOs generally run car tags through the respective agency that issues the registration, which should have been done here...especially considering it was second time in a year it's happened to the same aircraft. The LEOs themselves may not have been at fault, but surely the leadership was.
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