Addiction
12-26-2006, 05:41 PM
#41
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Situation
Originally Posted by exxcalibur11
Sky:
I understand what your motives are and what you are trying to accomplish on this forum. and although you present good data, i think it is sometimes skewed to further drive home your point. But maybe you dont realize that everybody has different situations and they come from many backgrounds. I'll give you that it is a high price to pay for training for only a little money to start out. Did you ever think that some people may not be in a situation where they need $70,000 plus in yearly earnings to live comfortably? Not everyone is married with three kids and a killer mortgage.
I realize why you are sour on this industry after it has kicked you while you were down. i dont doubt that i would be too. but thats not gonna stop me from trying. I will gladly work a job that pays less than others, to do something that i want to do. I dont want to be a mail man or police officer or fireman (as examples you've used before) or some financial guy at a desk playing with his calcualtor for 80 hours a week. to love to do something and not give it an honest effort is a crime. and didnt your parents ever tell you that you could be anything you want to be.
I was just hired at a regional and i start training early next month. I dont think I'll be there forever, but if i cant get on with a major, or something better doesnt come a long, at least i know i wont be making 30k forever. seniority will get me better schedules and pay all the time and ill be making more than any of my friends working thier boring 9-5's.
in the end, life is way to short to live with any regrets. so all you dreamers out there give it a shot! and if it doesnt work out, then go do something else. But dont throw in the towel before you step in the ring to fight
Exx
I understand what your motives are and what you are trying to accomplish on this forum. and although you present good data, i think it is sometimes skewed to further drive home your point. But maybe you dont realize that everybody has different situations and they come from many backgrounds. I'll give you that it is a high price to pay for training for only a little money to start out. Did you ever think that some people may not be in a situation where they need $70,000 plus in yearly earnings to live comfortably? Not everyone is married with three kids and a killer mortgage.
I realize why you are sour on this industry after it has kicked you while you were down. i dont doubt that i would be too. but thats not gonna stop me from trying. I will gladly work a job that pays less than others, to do something that i want to do. I dont want to be a mail man or police officer or fireman (as examples you've used before) or some financial guy at a desk playing with his calcualtor for 80 hours a week. to love to do something and not give it an honest effort is a crime. and didnt your parents ever tell you that you could be anything you want to be.
I was just hired at a regional and i start training early next month. I dont think I'll be there forever, but if i cant get on with a major, or something better doesnt come a long, at least i know i wont be making 30k forever. seniority will get me better schedules and pay all the time and ill be making more than any of my friends working thier boring 9-5's.
in the end, life is way to short to live with any regrets. so all you dreamers out there give it a shot! and if it doesnt work out, then go do something else. But dont throw in the towel before you step in the ring to fight
Exx
I am sure that my data is a little jaded towards my conclusions, however ERAU, AOPA and Flying Magazines use shameless lies to sell pilots on a fantasy. I even cut the data a little since the real numbers are too incredible sometimes. My errors and emissions are child's play by comparison.
We all need to earn a living and everyone needs to be able to earn back the price of their education and training or else they are hobbyists. Unless you are a trust fund baby or plan on living at home with your parents some day you might want a family and then 70K will seem like peanuts.
Everyone likes to use the old 80 hour work week accountant as the option to a flying career. It simply isn't true. Pilots tend to be people who go to incredible lengths to avoid growing up and getting a real job and end up working the hardest of all.
Lastly you have no idea what you will do in the future. No one goes into this career half heartedly. To suggest that you somehow have a stronger disposition than others is short sighted at best.
Skyhigh
12-26-2006, 06:22 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
Skyhigh,
The problem I have always had with your posts is only further proven by your current signature. You assume that all student pilots are learning with the hopes of becoming an airline pilot. From what I've found flying is no different than owning a boat. I would even go as far as saying that the percentage of "professionals" compared to recreational users in the boating industry is close to that of the aviation industry. My instructonal experience would suggest that.
I had somewhere around 30 students before I left the flight school I was working at. Of those only 3 have any aspirations of a career. Two are in highschool, and one is working on his commercial. The one working on a commercial only wants his CFI as a way to make a little money flying to suppliment his career as a college professor. So less than 10% of my students were looking to persue a career. Most were doing this because it was something that looked like an exciting challenge. A hobby. It's pretty easy to see when looking around your average GA airport that there are a ton of people out there that simply do this for fun. I'd say the vast minority go beyond a private certificate. The statistics would show that as well. AOPA loves the fact that there are so many student pilots because that's more people they get $39 a year from to lobby for GA and whatnot. Remember, there is a world of aviation outside of 121. If I recall you own a Luscombe or something like that yourself.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Just because you failed, doesn't mean everybody else will. Your timing really wasn't great and you jumped on the LCC bandwagon in the hopes of quick upgrade in a big plane. Does that mean mine is any better than yours? Who knows. Your 50 year old friend is not exactly making a prudent move. But I'd say that about any career change he was making at that point. Find work in a field you know.
The problem I have always had with your posts is only further proven by your current signature. You assume that all student pilots are learning with the hopes of becoming an airline pilot. From what I've found flying is no different than owning a boat. I would even go as far as saying that the percentage of "professionals" compared to recreational users in the boating industry is close to that of the aviation industry. My instructonal experience would suggest that.
I had somewhere around 30 students before I left the flight school I was working at. Of those only 3 have any aspirations of a career. Two are in highschool, and one is working on his commercial. The one working on a commercial only wants his CFI as a way to make a little money flying to suppliment his career as a college professor. So less than 10% of my students were looking to persue a career. Most were doing this because it was something that looked like an exciting challenge. A hobby. It's pretty easy to see when looking around your average GA airport that there are a ton of people out there that simply do this for fun. I'd say the vast minority go beyond a private certificate. The statistics would show that as well. AOPA loves the fact that there are so many student pilots because that's more people they get $39 a year from to lobby for GA and whatnot. Remember, there is a world of aviation outside of 121. If I recall you own a Luscombe or something like that yourself.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Just because you failed, doesn't mean everybody else will. Your timing really wasn't great and you jumped on the LCC bandwagon in the hopes of quick upgrade in a big plane. Does that mean mine is any better than yours? Who knows. Your 50 year old friend is not exactly making a prudent move. But I'd say that about any career change he was making at that point. Find work in a field you know.
12-26-2006, 06:55 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: BE-20, RA390
Posts: 644
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
As a 23 year old 30K seems like a small fortune but to a husband and father who is trying to prepare for college costs and retirement it is a pittance. Housing costs in the west are skyrocketing still. Middle class families will have a much more difficult time buying a home and it will not get any better.
Many people here will not heed your advice because of your constant talk of family and children. They intend on living by two rules:
1) Never get married
2) Never have children
DONT ATTACK ME SKYHIGH, I AM ONLY PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE MENTIONED IT FIRST
What says Skyhigh????
PS--I love domesticated life, and would caution anyone who wishes to have a family about the perils of aviation.
Last edited by GauleyPilot; 12-26-2006 at 07:04 PM.
12-26-2006, 07:03 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
Skyhigh,
The problem I have always had with your posts is only further proven by your current signature. You assume that all student pilots are learning with the hopes of becoming an airline pilot. From what I've found flying is no different than owning a boat. I would even go as far as saying that the percentage of "professionals" compared to recreational users in the boating industry is close to that of the aviation industry. My instructonal experience would suggest that.
I had somewhere around 30 students before I left the flight school I was working at. Of those only 3 have any aspirations of a career. Two are in highschool, and one is working on his commercial. The one working on a commercial only wants his CFI as a way to make a little money flying to suppliment his career as a college professor. So less than 10% of my students were looking to persue a career. Most were doing this because it was something that looked like an exciting challenge. A hobby. It's pretty easy to see when looking around your average GA airport that there are a ton of people out there that simply do this for fun. I'd say the vast minority go beyond a private certificate. The statistics would show that as well. AOPA loves the fact that there are so many student pilots because that's more people they get $39 a year from to lobby for GA and whatnot. Remember, there is a world of aviation outside of 121. If I recall you own a Luscombe or something like that yourself.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Just because you failed, doesn't mean everybody else will. Your timing really wasn't great and you jumped on the LCC bandwagon in the hopes of quick upgrade in a big plane. Does that mean mine is any better than yours? Who knows. Your 50 year old friend is not exactly making a prudent move. But I'd say that about any career change he was making at that point. Find work in a field you know.
The problem I have always had with your posts is only further proven by your current signature. You assume that all student pilots are learning with the hopes of becoming an airline pilot. From what I've found flying is no different than owning a boat. I would even go as far as saying that the percentage of "professionals" compared to recreational users in the boating industry is close to that of the aviation industry. My instructonal experience would suggest that.
I had somewhere around 30 students before I left the flight school I was working at. Of those only 3 have any aspirations of a career. Two are in highschool, and one is working on his commercial. The one working on a commercial only wants his CFI as a way to make a little money flying to suppliment his career as a college professor. So less than 10% of my students were looking to persue a career. Most were doing this because it was something that looked like an exciting challenge. A hobby. It's pretty easy to see when looking around your average GA airport that there are a ton of people out there that simply do this for fun. I'd say the vast minority go beyond a private certificate. The statistics would show that as well. AOPA loves the fact that there are so many student pilots because that's more people they get $39 a year from to lobby for GA and whatnot. Remember, there is a world of aviation outside of 121. If I recall you own a Luscombe or something like that yourself.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Just because you failed, doesn't mean everybody else will. Your timing really wasn't great and you jumped on the LCC bandwagon in the hopes of quick upgrade in a big plane. Does that mean mine is any better than yours? Who knows. Your 50 year old friend is not exactly making a prudent move. But I'd say that about any career change he was making at that point. Find work in a field you know.
Last edited by NE_Pilot; 12-26-2006 at 07:49 PM.
12-26-2006, 07:47 PM
#45
Swearing at the FMA
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 902
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
The pay scales are unhealthy when you consider all the losses and sacrifices it takes to get there. The average age of new hires at the majors is near 40. If the age 60 rule is abolished I bet the average major new hire will soon be 45. In addition most don't usually get keep those better jobs for long.
You are looking at the situation as it is today and assume that it will continue as such. Take a step back and look at the trend and you will see where the future is going. Legacy pilots now earn a third of what they did just a few years ago. The regionals have enjoyed a few good years but now it will be their turn to spill blood. Frontier could be bought and all their pilots flushed into the street. No one is safe and of the few who find a good spot most likely they will not keep it long.
I don't think the deteriorating conditions will cause a decrease in the amount of pilots. Pilots are too eager to throw themselves into the fire for nothing. In any case we have enough unemployed or underemployed pilots now to last for the next decade or two.
Skyhigh
You are looking at the situation as it is today and assume that it will continue as such. Take a step back and look at the trend and you will see where the future is going. Legacy pilots now earn a third of what they did just a few years ago. The regionals have enjoyed a few good years but now it will be their turn to spill blood. Frontier could be bought and all their pilots flushed into the street. No one is safe and of the few who find a good spot most likely they will not keep it long.
I don't think the deteriorating conditions will cause a decrease in the amount of pilots. Pilots are too eager to throw themselves into the fire for nothing. In any case we have enough unemployed or underemployed pilots now to last for the next decade or two.
Skyhigh
So you're saying this whole thing is in a complete and total death spiral? What do you think is going to happen? That we'll all be volunteer workers in 5 years? Like all things in life (and all careers), the airlines are cyclical. To predict a downturn to continue infinitely is to competely ignore history and facts. The regionals are going down, the legacies are going down, the LCC's are going to be bought out...what's next? Airplanes replaced by golf carts with nitrous for extra speed? The unpredictability in this job is not very different than the turmoil found in other jobs. Turmoil is a fact of life.
People are people. To say that pilots are more willing to throw their lives away for a shot at a dream is to ignore countless other people in countless other professions that are doing the exact same thing.
12-26-2006, 07:50 PM
#46
Swearing at the FMA
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 902
Originally Posted by GauleyPilot
Sky,
Many people here will not heed your advice because of your constant talk of family and children. They intend on living by two rules:
1) Never get married
2) Never have children
DONT ATTACK ME SKYHIGH, I AM ONLY PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE MENTIONED IT FIRST
What says Skyhigh????
PS--I love domesticated life, and would caution anyone who wishes to have a family about the perils of aviation.
Many people here will not heed your advice because of your constant talk of family and children. They intend on living by two rules:
1) Never get married
2) Never have children
DONT ATTACK ME SKYHIGH, I AM ONLY PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE MENTIONED IT FIRST
What says Skyhigh????
PS--I love domesticated life, and would caution anyone who wishes to have a family about the perils of aviation.
12-26-2006, 09:00 PM
#47
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Pilot Starts
Kansas, NE Pilot,
Flight Training magazine use to publish a section titled "Pilot Starts". That section kept track of new pilot starts and forecast their future training intentions as a service to CFI's. Back in the early 1990's about two thirds of all pvt pilot starts had professional intentions. At that time only a third of pilots went on to the commercial pilot training. Since then the amount of commercial pilots versus pvt pilots had increased.
To me this is evidence of the decline of the remaining third of truly recreational minded pilots and the increase of professional intended pilot newbies. Another supporting fact that supports my conclusion is the advent of the student loan for pilots. It wasn't around much before the early 1990's. now even the most insane with a solid co-signer can jump in and take on 45K in debt.
Today it takes an average of 75 hours to get a private pilots license. The mere cost and time required is staggering. The pvt pilots licence is not like "boating" at all the price of training is around $10,000 and then you get to rent a 172 for $120 per hour. For the average person it is flat stupid. The sport pilot category hopefully will save GA from falling completely on its face. In time I am sure that the data will reflect a near one to one PVT PLT to COMM conversion. All the truly recreationally minded pilots will take the sport pilot route.
Even at the face value of around a quarter of a million professionally rated pilots with current medicals it is a staggering amount. Far too many for the available jobs. Eventually they give up and disappear. Perhaps you guys worked at FBO's that catered to local wealthy pilot types. Stop by ERAU or ATP and you will see a stunning example of a pilot factory in action.
In response to another question regarding families and flying it is true that for most it is to much to reach for. Overall it is my position that when the averages are taken into consideration a career in aviation is a poor choice for anyone when compared to other similar lines of work. When taken into its entirety the crushing cost of training, education and early years of experience building should demand a plastic surgeons wage. Instead pilots are thrown a bone at best. Faced with the naked reality myself I had to turn my back. I have had opportunities over the last few years. However after evaluating the prospects of a future with dimming hopes of a major airline job it didn't add up.
So with what self respect I had left I turned my back on my aviation dreams and every day since my life has gotten fantastically better. Eventually the spell was broken and each day I feel the passion for flight draining from me like sand from an hour glass. Actually I am sad about that. I still own a plane but can't get myself to even got to the hangar to look at it anymore. It is with newly unaltered vision that I look back onto the carnage that was my flying career and remember all the friends who I lost or were chewed up by the industry and feel obligated to pass that information on to you guys.
SkyHigh
Flight Training magazine use to publish a section titled "Pilot Starts". That section kept track of new pilot starts and forecast their future training intentions as a service to CFI's. Back in the early 1990's about two thirds of all pvt pilot starts had professional intentions. At that time only a third of pilots went on to the commercial pilot training. Since then the amount of commercial pilots versus pvt pilots had increased.
To me this is evidence of the decline of the remaining third of truly recreational minded pilots and the increase of professional intended pilot newbies. Another supporting fact that supports my conclusion is the advent of the student loan for pilots. It wasn't around much before the early 1990's. now even the most insane with a solid co-signer can jump in and take on 45K in debt.
Today it takes an average of 75 hours to get a private pilots license. The mere cost and time required is staggering. The pvt pilots licence is not like "boating" at all the price of training is around $10,000 and then you get to rent a 172 for $120 per hour. For the average person it is flat stupid. The sport pilot category hopefully will save GA from falling completely on its face. In time I am sure that the data will reflect a near one to one PVT PLT to COMM conversion. All the truly recreationally minded pilots will take the sport pilot route.
Even at the face value of around a quarter of a million professionally rated pilots with current medicals it is a staggering amount. Far too many for the available jobs. Eventually they give up and disappear. Perhaps you guys worked at FBO's that catered to local wealthy pilot types. Stop by ERAU or ATP and you will see a stunning example of a pilot factory in action.
In response to another question regarding families and flying it is true that for most it is to much to reach for. Overall it is my position that when the averages are taken into consideration a career in aviation is a poor choice for anyone when compared to other similar lines of work. When taken into its entirety the crushing cost of training, education and early years of experience building should demand a plastic surgeons wage. Instead pilots are thrown a bone at best. Faced with the naked reality myself I had to turn my back. I have had opportunities over the last few years. However after evaluating the prospects of a future with dimming hopes of a major airline job it didn't add up.
So with what self respect I had left I turned my back on my aviation dreams and every day since my life has gotten fantastically better. Eventually the spell was broken and each day I feel the passion for flight draining from me like sand from an hour glass. Actually I am sad about that. I still own a plane but can't get myself to even got to the hangar to look at it anymore. It is with newly unaltered vision that I look back onto the carnage that was my flying career and remember all the friends who I lost or were chewed up by the industry and feel obligated to pass that information on to you guys.
SkyHigh
12-26-2006, 09:21 PM
#48
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 47
""People are people. To say that pilots are more willing to throw their lives away for a shot at a dream is to ignore countless other people in countless other professions that are doing the exact same thing.""
Couldn't have said that better. That has been my arguement this whole time. It's not just flying, it's about alot of other careers that demand the same sacrifice and cost of training, with about the same amount of reward.
Skyhigh mentioned something about starving artisits in a previous post. I think he made a point he didn't intend to make, and it made a little sense to me at least. This profession requires probably the same amount of love, skill , and luck that it does to become a moderately sucessfull artist. Without any of those three things, aviation will not work out. But again, not just aviation, many other careers. I just like the parallel of the artists life.
It's all about Love, Skill, and Luck for any career, in that order.
P R
PS, I am not even gonna try to guess where this career is heading. But I do know as long as there are aircraft, there needs to be pilots to fly them. And with record deliveries of A/C, there needs to be pilots to fill those seats.
Couldn't have said that better. That has been my arguement this whole time. It's not just flying, it's about alot of other careers that demand the same sacrifice and cost of training, with about the same amount of reward.
Skyhigh mentioned something about starving artisits in a previous post. I think he made a point he didn't intend to make, and it made a little sense to me at least. This profession requires probably the same amount of love, skill , and luck that it does to become a moderately sucessfull artist. Without any of those three things, aviation will not work out. But again, not just aviation, many other careers. I just like the parallel of the artists life.
It's all about Love, Skill, and Luck for any career, in that order.
P R
PS, I am not even gonna try to guess where this career is heading. But I do know as long as there are aircraft, there needs to be pilots to fly them. And with record deliveries of A/C, there needs to be pilots to fill those seats.
12-27-2006, 12:45 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
The place I used to work at had shiny planes, and charged a premium. The one I'm working at now is more down home. Planes are a little more beat up but they have been in business for 45 years. It's a neat atmosphere. Lots of hangar flying and people out there for the sake of flying. They take care of their people, and I'm much happier where I am now.
I've always made it a point to discuss the less desirable points of this industry with the starry-eyed students. Advertising should be looked at as just that. Of course these schools are going to put two page ads with cool pictures in the magazines. Take a look at Sports Illustrated some time. HOw many athletes are hocking "get better at x sport" videos? There's nothing wrong with having aspirations to be a professional athlete but far fewer make it to the big leagues than to a major airline. However I don't think anybody should be told that their persuit of a dream is foolish. That is, unless, they think they can sing but are tone-deaf. I laugh at them on American Idol, but they are really worthless after that.
I stopped flying for more than a year and had a "real" job. I was damn good at what I was doing (sales) and could have quickly moved up through the ranks of the store I was at. However, I wasn't happy doing this. Every day I went in, and wished I was in a plane. Once you have ends met, it's all relative. I have friends in a wide variety of fields. Many own their business. Some make tons of money, some don't. To a man they can't think of anything else they'd rather do and are passionate about it regardless of if it's carpentry, welding, fighting fires or taxidermy.
You say it's not like boating. My dad is lamenting over the fact that a replacement for his 20 year old jon boat that he paid $1500 for back in the day will cost him about $10k new. Nothing fancy. The only thing he's looking for is something with a wider beam and about two feet longer so it's more stable. Everything is more expensive.
I've always made it a point to discuss the less desirable points of this industry with the starry-eyed students. Advertising should be looked at as just that. Of course these schools are going to put two page ads with cool pictures in the magazines. Take a look at Sports Illustrated some time. HOw many athletes are hocking "get better at x sport" videos? There's nothing wrong with having aspirations to be a professional athlete but far fewer make it to the big leagues than to a major airline. However I don't think anybody should be told that their persuit of a dream is foolish. That is, unless, they think they can sing but are tone-deaf. I laugh at them on American Idol, but they are really worthless after that.
I stopped flying for more than a year and had a "real" job. I was damn good at what I was doing (sales) and could have quickly moved up through the ranks of the store I was at. However, I wasn't happy doing this. Every day I went in, and wished I was in a plane. Once you have ends met, it's all relative. I have friends in a wide variety of fields. Many own their business. Some make tons of money, some don't. To a man they can't think of anything else they'd rather do and are passionate about it regardless of if it's carpentry, welding, fighting fires or taxidermy.
You say it's not like boating. My dad is lamenting over the fact that a replacement for his 20 year old jon boat that he paid $1500 for back in the day will cost him about $10k new. Nothing fancy. The only thing he's looking for is something with a wider beam and about two feet longer so it's more stable. Everything is more expensive.
12-27-2006, 05:06 AM
#50
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Over Educated
Guys,
Flying is still different. You seem to be comparing aviation with other college trained jobs that are out there like computer programmer or English majors. A huge problem with America is that we have a bloated over educated population. People who should have been destined for a job as a plumber are being pressed into college. As a result we have a world of unemployed pilots and computer programmers and working poor ones.
People in the vocational and service sector are doing well and have been written about over the last year in the Wall Street Journal. In my small farm town a plumbing apprentice starts out at minimum wage and will reach 60K in four years. A few years after that 70 is possible or you could open your own company and earn even more. All that without paying one dime towards college or training of any kind. Last month a guy from the phone company came to repair the network at my home. He had just graduated from a local Vocational/technical school with training in telecommunications. He had a job offer 6 months before he graduated.
People will accept less pay and poor working conditions for an interesting sounding job. After blowing a small fortune and a half a decade on training and education people are about willing to work for free in order to tell others that they are "successful"
. If you are comparing a flying career to other fancy sounding college trained jobs then I agree with you. However if you were to compare to plumbers, electricians, HVAC workers or even to urban garbage men you will see what I am talking about.
I too in my 20's had another job outside of aviation for a time. I was a county firefighter for almost a year. I was doing well and was being groomed for promotion when I left. Had I stayed I would be two thirds of the way to a full retirement and would be earning 85K by now. Aviation is very seductive. Most people are not crazy about their jobs but can find something they enjoy about it. It is unrealistic to expect to have a blast at work each day and if you do the trade off is low wages, ask any ski instructor or fishing guide.
Plumbers don't expect to have fun at work each day but they still show up. Their job is not to glamorous and that is why they can support a family on it. By the time a young plumber completes his apprenticeship he is already earning a regional captains wage and is house hunting while his peers are just finishing college. The plumber will enjoy a steady and slowly increasing wage throughout his career. As pilot wages fall and service technician jobs climb in a decade plumbers will earn as much as major airline captains, but don't have to pay a kings ransom in training and education expenses. Pilots are a different sort. They go to great lengths to avoid getting a real job and end up working the hardest of all. The expectation of having a job that is fun, satisfying and interesting is a painfully expensive luxury that few can afford.
One day you will grow up and think " man I sure wish I had a house. I wish I had an income to support a family on" and then you will say " I wish I didn't have a $1200 student loan to payment for a career that pays peanuts". Most who post here, like it or not, will quit flying one day and will find a real job. They will lick their wounds and ask how they got into that predicament.
SkyHigh
Flying is still different. You seem to be comparing aviation with other college trained jobs that are out there like computer programmer or English majors. A huge problem with America is that we have a bloated over educated population. People who should have been destined for a job as a plumber are being pressed into college. As a result we have a world of unemployed pilots and computer programmers and working poor ones.
People in the vocational and service sector are doing well and have been written about over the last year in the Wall Street Journal. In my small farm town a plumbing apprentice starts out at minimum wage and will reach 60K in four years. A few years after that 70 is possible or you could open your own company and earn even more. All that without paying one dime towards college or training of any kind. Last month a guy from the phone company came to repair the network at my home. He had just graduated from a local Vocational/technical school with training in telecommunications. He had a job offer 6 months before he graduated.
People will accept less pay and poor working conditions for an interesting sounding job. After blowing a small fortune and a half a decade on training and education people are about willing to work for free in order to tell others that they are "successful"
. If you are comparing a flying career to other fancy sounding college trained jobs then I agree with you. However if you were to compare to plumbers, electricians, HVAC workers or even to urban garbage men you will see what I am talking about. I too in my 20's had another job outside of aviation for a time. I was a county firefighter for almost a year. I was doing well and was being groomed for promotion when I left. Had I stayed I would be two thirds of the way to a full retirement and would be earning 85K by now. Aviation is very seductive. Most people are not crazy about their jobs but can find something they enjoy about it. It is unrealistic to expect to have a blast at work each day and if you do the trade off is low wages, ask any ski instructor or fishing guide.
Plumbers don't expect to have fun at work each day but they still show up. Their job is not to glamorous and that is why they can support a family on it. By the time a young plumber completes his apprenticeship he is already earning a regional captains wage and is house hunting while his peers are just finishing college. The plumber will enjoy a steady and slowly increasing wage throughout his career. As pilot wages fall and service technician jobs climb in a decade plumbers will earn as much as major airline captains, but don't have to pay a kings ransom in training and education expenses. Pilots are a different sort. They go to great lengths to avoid getting a real job and end up working the hardest of all. The expectation of having a job that is fun, satisfying and interesting is a painfully expensive luxury that few can afford.
One day you will grow up and think " man I sure wish I had a house. I wish I had an income to support a family on" and then you will say " I wish I didn't have a $1200 student loan to payment for a career that pays peanuts". Most who post here, like it or not, will quit flying one day and will find a real job. They will lick their wounds and ask how they got into that predicament.
SkyHigh
