Affirmative action in the airlines?
 

Hello as a hispanic pilot in training, I was wondering if the airlines take a persons ethnicity into consideration to comply with affirmative action? I've never really put too much thought into it until recently while speaking to a senior CFI at my workplace. He was telling me that I had a better chance of getting hired later on because some companies want to meet quotas and tend to consider minorities for some postions because of it. I've always worked hard for everything I have achieved and like I said before, I never thought of how the airlines take affirmative action into play when hiring. I like to think I got a job because I worked my but off and made a great impression with my pilot skills not because im a mexican-american male.

I too am of a Mexican background and wondered the same thing. I actually read an article, and I am sorry to say I can't remember where, that talked about U.S. airline hiring practices and ethnicity. Basically, the article said that airline pilots as a whole represent the general population other than women. Basically, around 75% of pilots are White, while Blacks and Hispanics each represent around 10% of the airline pilots. The other 5% being other. Those numbers pretty much represent the ethnic make up of the country.

My class of 39 has two non-caucasians and three women.

Wouldn't this then be discrimination against all other ethnicities not considered? If anti-discrimination is the goal, why consider ethnicity at all? Affirmative action is simply discrimination in disquise in my opinion. To answer your question, some airlines take this into account more than others. One of the large majors has a reputation for giving preferrential hiring treatment to minorities and females. While most of us would agree that having a pilot pool that represents a cross section of America as a good thing, the goal should be to hire the best pilots regardless of race or gender.

Thank you CALCAPT. I just wish all pilots and or companies thought like that.

My past experience suggest you have a significant advantage over white Americans. I think it sucks personally because I don't believe that because 15% of the population is Hispanic, then 15% of the Pilots should be hispanic. This type of thinking promotes racism. Good luck in your careers.

I just want to make it clear that I do not support affirmative action...all I was saying was that airline pilots tend to represent the ethnic make up of the country which means that there are far less minorities then the majority...I take this as proof that affirmative action is not a big player...or else you would probably have a disproportional number of minority percentages of pilots to the actual ethnic make up.

Let me just add...that working along side people who are not the most qualified sucks and is a great way to kill a company.

I totally agree with you calcapt. If I got a job at an airline I would not want the other pilots thinking I must have gotten a break because im hispanic.

Affirmative Action is a plague on the airline industry and on America as well.

It creates an uneven playing field, and is most certainly NOT the American way.

If you want something, you work toward that goal, and finish the deal. You should never be placed in front of another individual who has worked harder or longer because you're a certain race, ethinicity or gender.

But of those 5 non-white males. What was the level of experience? Was it equal to the others?

As i see it there are issues with the way affirmative action is used, there are also issues with how things would be without it. Years ago two equally qualified individuals of different races would not have been seen as equally qualified in the majority of buisinesses. In order to "force" businesses to accept that everyone was equal preferential hiring was established, the unfortunate is that it is basically reverse descrimination, which only further divides the people. IF the affirmative action had not been initialized, i highly doubt that the work force would have become as diversified as it did so quickly.

Personally, i think it should be setup that the most qualified individual should get the job, always. But, that goes deeper than a racial issue to a social economic issue, the schools in poorer districts have to be improved, the college enviornment has to be made accesible (its pretty expensive as we all know), and the businesses have to be fair. Some say that as a business i should be able to hire whoever i want, and if i don't want any minorities, then i shouldn't have to hire them, if i didn't want any white men, then i shouldn't have to hire them either, etc. Well, that might be your right, but as history has stated time and time again, your rights don't mean much once they step on someone else's rights.

in a PERFECT world, people would be hired based solely on their qualifications, and in this perfect world affermative action would only ensure that these individuals are only hired based on their qualifications. But, I don't live in a perfect world, and as a result, have to deal with what works at the moment, or doesn't, and change things accordingly.

-PS
I'm one of the minorities in that class of 39, and the flight experience across the board is so wide (400-2000TT) that i don't think anyone in the class is any more or any less qualified than anyone else.

Let me get this straight. Everyone is equal so we are forcing you to hire one individual over another to make things equal. What a crock of BS!


I couldn't agree more!



College is expensive for everyone. It took years to pay off my student loans. Open a phone book and there are tens of thousands of colleges, community colleges and trade schools throughout this country. Effort is what is required, not excuses. I doubt that if anyone seriously wanted to go to school, he or she would be denied due to economic conditions. There are many social programs to address these situations as we all know. The truth is, it is easier for many to come up with excuses why they don't have the opportunity to go to college than it is to get their a$$ out of bed and go.



Well no $hit. That's why it's called MY business. If I have a business that sells womens lingerie, should I be required to hire a male Mexican (or fill in the blank) construction worker to work there over an attractive female sales professional that understands the special needs and uniqueness of my product? What kind of logic is that? On the flip side, If I were building a road, I would probably pass on the lady and hire the construction worker, as is my prerogative. If you don't like the way I run my business, start your own f-ing business, as is your right. You have no guaranteed rights to work for me anymore than I have a guaranteed right to be a captain for British Airways.


Contrary to what you or others may choose to believe, I have no issues with any minority or gender in the workplace so long as they are competent to do the job. I get very annoyed though when bull$hit is spread about "rights" and who is owed what. Equal is equal and anything else is NOT equal. I have flown with several non-white and non-male first officers that have overcome almost insurmountable odds to get to a major airline job. They weren't handed anything and they didn't ask or expect it. It discredits their incredible drive, determination and accomplishment to suggest that minorities cannot achieve something because of some perceived lack of opportunity. If equal opportunity is the goal, then lets be equal in all respects!

Sorry, the low guy (girl, or non-white rather) in the class had 400 total and the high had 2000?

That's correct on the times dojet, all across the board.


Calcapt, I actually do agree with what you've said. Often times, people will make excuses well before they step up to the plate to play ball, why? Because it's easier. I see no reason why a person doesn't graduate highschool in these days if they have no "extremely difficult circumstances" (to much put on them by parents aka....you watch brothers and sisters from the time you get home from school to the time you go to bed, make dinner, etc) not everyone's lot in life is as easy as the next guys, nor as hard, all relative. My girlfriend is in her first year of teaching and has noticed that about some of her students, they come from poor families (no excuse for not trying) but some students are not being given the time to do their homework, instead are required to do their parents housework. If a person was in that situation, the end result is that they're probably not going to be prepared for college, and even if they did get accepted to one, they wouldn't have the background to succeed...tough luck. Does that have anything to do w/ affirmative action? Nope.

So, should a person be admitted to college just to meet a quota? Nope, should a person get a job for the same reason? No again. Honestly, in the aviation workplace i don't believe that you see affirmative action all that much, honestly, you don't see it that much in many workplaces anymore. It's not as much "hire this many of this group, this many of this group" like it was in the past, and i believe that on average people get a fair shot at getting a job as long as their qualified.

I do know that my resume' doesn't say "minority-hire me" anywhere on it, and my name is as american as the next guy...so, if anyone on here's resume' is the same way, and you were still called for the interview, i highly doubt that affirmative action got you the position...they were already prepared to hire you.

Fly,
How long have you been out of the Navy and searching for a civilian job? Only recently would be my guess. When I was at the commuters in the late 90's I saw countless females and minorities get hired during that wave of hiring with well below averages of experience. All the while white males that had 1000's of hours turbine pic, IOE intructor positions, and multiple type ratings not even get a call to interview (with no skeletons, I might add). You may not see so many of these underqualified people that I describe at a given airline nowadays because of the massive furloughs that followed but it happened. I saw it happen MANY times. I predict more of the same when the next wave of hiring hits. Affirmative Action is unfortunately alive and well in the aviation community.

I'd say that they're in the upper half of the experience range of our class. I know they've all got more than me.
NavyJ hit it right on the head with his summation.

Why worry?
 

Why get all upset over a non factor like Afirmitive Action? Regionals Are hiring at 600/100. A warm body that fills the right seat seems to be the only qualification. I don't know of anybody who can't find a job somewhere.

I dont think most of of are getting upset by Afirm Action at the commuter level,since those jobs are pretty much dime a dozen and stepping stones at best. Its the actions at the majors that concern me the most, espcially since the airlines like to tout they only hire the best and most quailified.

And yes, I am one of the ones that knows several females that were hired at the majors ( in the late 90s) that still had wet ink on their ATP while their male counterparts had much, much more experience and never even got an interview.

Affirmative action is racist. If we are to be a true egalitarean society, there is no white, black, brown blue etc...we are people.

agree w/ that hotmama, wonder how long it will be before everyone can be treated that way? and i mean EVERYONE.

Another note, i never thought the airlines hired who was most qualified (like many industries do) they typically hire who they like ... despite race, that's just another factor that apparently was (is) practiced.

I see. I misunderstood. I thought we were talking about a CAL new hire class here. I about shart myself with the 400 tt thing.

don't forget
 

Remember that "most qualified" does not equate directly to hours in a logbook. A pilot with a pleasant personality and experience in 121 ops might be seen as more qualified than another pilot that is not quite so pleasant and has all Flight Instruction or 135 hours despite having logged more hours. Once the minimums are met, the screening process tries to find the person who would best fit into the company climate. Knowing somebody doesn't hurt either!

Calcapt and others against affirmative action.
 

I believe affirmative action is a by-product of racism and slavery. In an equal world it would not be needed. Sadly America is not an equal world. Just as recent as the sixties blacks were not allowed to use the same restrooms as whites. They definitely did not get the same kind of education. Without affirmative action very few black persons would have made into the US military academy. You would not have some of the excellent officers you have today.
Motivation is very important for the development of races. In America today the whites are very much as a group ahead of everyone else. They have worked very hard to get there and it is mostly deserved. In the process of building this great country called America and establishing a worldwide standard of fairness and forgiveness for the crimes of slavery. We need to motivate minorities. As a black kid I could dream of becoming a Pilot because my uncle was a pilot, my father was a doctor, my mother graduated from an Ivy League university. I am different from a kid who was born to crack head aged 14 yrs old with no knowledge of who his father is. A very hostile environment to grow up in. that kid needs affirmative action to give him a chance. Give him the environment in which he may get to meet white kids and maybe visit their homes and learn some of the good values which most of them are been raised with.
Affirmative action is not something that should exist forever. It is temporary but it is needed as of today in very small doses. It does not help many blacks get airline jobs. It may get you an interview but you better be qualified or you do not get hired.

The white guy has a better network of friends in the airline to act as referees for getting a job. People who can guide him on how to better present his qualifications. The black guy most of the time does not have that network. If he does the network is going to be mostly white or blacks that have been put in position of power by whites. This country is a white controlled country and the whites that encourage inclusiveness are those who have help make this place the great nation it is.
Minorities also have buying power, which companies have to recognize; I want to see black pilots fly airplanes I buy tickets on. I want to see black managers in companies I buy products. I want my children to see role models in good positions that have their same skin color so they can believe they can get there.
That is why I a member of organization of black Pilots and I so strongly support their youth programs. My friend seeing makes you believe and affirmative action will one day result in an end to affirmative action.
I also strongly disagree that affirmative action is responsible for white males not getting airline jobs. There are just not that many blacks in the business. My company has only one black female pilot. Who is quite qualified for the job? I have always had way more experience than required to get a job. Always being qualified. So people lets try to be understanding and sympathetic to those who are underprivileged. It is the America way.

blah blah blah blah blah......aa is racist. The buck needs to stop. it doesn't matter what's happend in the past

What a crock!
 

First of all, I am not your friend so don't make any blanket assumptions. Affirmative action was, and is, a sorry program to right the wrongs of history. It doesn't work and as a minority I would be ashamed to be part of it. I have never owned, nor have I ever known anyone who has owned slaves. Our generation has had this ill devised program shoved down our throats for the deeds of stupid plantation owners that lived long before most of us were even born. I don't need to motivate any minorities. If you want to hang with the homies and sit on your $ss, you will be rewarded with what that brings. If, on the other hand, you want to get your $ss out of bed and learn a trade or go to school, you then will reep the rewards of doing so. Please don't get confused by thinking it is my obligation to come knock on someone's door and teach them the way of truth and light. The kid doesn't "need affirmative action to give him a chance", he needs parents who will teach him about life and people in his life who give a $hit. A white controlled country? This white controlled country is the same one who lets people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the Rev. Louis Ferrakhan on national television on a regular basis to spew their messages of division and hatred. Your writings in this post are the height of hypocrisy when it comes to racism. Let me write your very words only substituting my race for yours and please sir, tell me how long it would be before you and your select member organizations label me as a racist:

"I want to see white pilots fly airplanes I buy tickets on"

"I want to see white managers in companies I buy products"

"I want my children to see role models in good positions that have their same skin color so they can believe they can get there.

"That is why I a member of organization of White Pilots"......

This is just your words, how about other obvious examples:

* Miss White America
* White Congressional Caucus
* United White College Fund
* National Association for the Advancement of White People (NAAWP)

I could go on and on and on. You somehow believe that your view of color differences are perfectly acceptable while anyone on the other side is labeled a racist and other hateful things. Racism hurts both ways and until you begin to see the world as people, rather than your people, it will be difficult to make progress. If I were a minority I would be ashamed and embarrased to read what you wrote here. I applaud you for working hard to become a pilot, but your attitude of entitlement, and having others carry the load and responsibility for those who don't have the will or ambition to get their $ss out of bed is discraceful. Your mis-guided thoughts here are the very reason many racial integration problems still exist. Until you see yourself as equal, and not entitled, it will be difficult for others to do the same. And let me point out that the American way belongs to us all, not just you and the NAACP.

Amen calcapt. The double standard must end and we must end such hypocritical organizations. BTW, speed bird. Why don't you get rid of that stupid monarch system before you start trying to stick your nose in the usa's affairs.

Thank God for democracy
 

Fellows it is because people have different opinions that we have a democracy. I really do not expect you to ever understand people like me. I do not even care if you hate blacks or are indifferent to their plight. It is the law today that organizations that promote black development exist. I owe no apology nor do I feel your pain. I have lived in many racist countries including South Africa. Out there we had a debate over what was called the double standard. The South Africans agreed you could not control individual feelings. He had a right to hate blacks if he wants. But the law would not allow him use his hatred to create harm to other races. Most of your guys are over qualified as racist. Sadly ignorant racist because you are not even aware you are a racist. Extremely brainwashed. But that is your problem. The tide is moving in the right direction. Having an organization that promotes peaceful development of any race is okay. You have such groups for many races and groups.
The way forward is not to ignore race discussions as unnecessary and just write off history but to talk about it.
Calcapt you most likely need to spend a month living somewhere with lots of blacks like South Africa and then come back and tell me history does not matter.
As for friendship with you I have brought many like you over from the dark side. Calcapt and Hotmama Pilot are good candidates for getting a dose of black love and reality. I suggest living with blacks for a month to feel their pain and appreciate their environment.

On the application
 

Pilot certificate

Ratings

Experience

References

****

If anyone thinks that they should use their gender or race as an advantage then they are part of the problem, not the solution.

If minorities are hired because they are qualified then 'others' think that the minority got on because of their sex or race then the 'others' is part of the problem as well.

Makes my head spin, this is too deep.

The end!
 

Against my better judgment and all common sense I will make one final post to this thread. I have no plans to move to Africa, but thanks so much for the invitation and your concern. You can keep your black love too as I don't date or hang around idiots. I try to avoid mentally deficient folks in case what they have is contagious. My next door neighbors are a wonderful black family who has clearly understood the idea of earning their way. They do, and live well for it. Additionally, they have the good fortune of having me as their neighbor.:rolleyes: We are very close friends and our respective skin color has never factored into our friendship.

I initially thought you were a hardworking OK guy who just may be a little confused about life. After reading your latest post, I am now totally and completely convinced that you are a discredit to your race, and on top of that, you are an idiot. In fact you have just assumed the position of TOP IDIOT on this forum. In a sea of idiots, you have indeed reached the pinnacle. Save whatever garbage you may spew my way as I won't be reading it. If, as your name suggests you are British, I pity Her Majesty for having to tolerate your sorry a$$ in her country. I have wasted enough time on you...

Calcapt. It never ends....
 

I pity your poor black neighbors. Playing around with a snake. What is the fun there?
Your opinion is worthless to me, views totally representative of you.
Africa misses nothing from your absence. I would dare say when you finally move on to answer to your maker. The world would likely be better for it. Hopefully the philosophy you have used to corrupt those around you. Would be washed away by those better than you.

Amen . . .
 

Calcapt hit the nail right on the head!

Direct and succinct Calcapt, great post!

This thread has kinda gotten a little off topic as well as gone pretty far down a nice sloping hill.

I don't agree with many things that you've stated speedbird, but, to each his own.

Also don't agree with some things that have been stated by cal.

On a side note, despite race of any sort, i don't have pity nor respect for ANYONE who isn't willing to try their hardest. Freeloaders who believe that they're entitled to something is definately against many of my beliefs. Does affirmative action support laziness (ideally no, however it definately does allow it...as much as most government sponsored programs- i.e. wellfare)

So, if the question was does affirmative action bother me, honestly no. as Booya (lol) stated, your resume' won't say your race on it anyway, so getting to the table is going to be based on qualifications and recommendations (so everyones equal there). Leave say women and individuals named dawan' or rodgriguez.

So, if ya put your all into something (work your butt off like everyone else) you have just as much right as everyone else to be hired...and as far as i'd be concerned, just as little right also. Best of luck.

For a long time a friend of mine never answered the self disclosure form. Just didn't think is was right. Then he realized he was 1/gazillionth native american, and listed himself as such. Started getting interview offers coming out his ears. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe not. But, I have started taking a long look at my family tree.

I disagree with this post totally. I live in an area wher epeople dont know about opportunities in aviation. Their dads dont own airplanes or are airline captains. So, because of that they are not exposed to the job market. SO, they need something to help expose them. The playing field is not level right now. So, how is it discrmination to help those get an equal hand that currently dont have that. How many non white male airlines pilots do you think there are? I'l tell you. 2% Thats terrible. The playing field is not equal so yes they need a hand up. Thats differant from a hand out. Nobody should want a hand out but a hand up is al they need.

Nba
 

There are cultural differences that tend to collect concentrations of peoples and perhaps some mixing of the pot is a good idea. However what we are discussing here effects safety.

SKyHigh

My dad (or any blood relative) does not own an airplane. I am the first one in my family to touch the controls. I was born a poor white child. Does that mean I deserve "something to help expose" me? If so, i would love to have some folks forward my resume.

By the way, i doubt the NBA is staffed by players who are representiative of the US population... perhaps we should have more asians and hispanics on the teams. (oops, maybe I crossed a line here)

Just to satisfy my curiosity, why is it that every post you've made in this thread has been edited for spelling?

Poor at spelling
 

I am not as smart as I sound but I know right from wrong!

Now there's a scary thought.