Alaska
 

Rumor has it Alaska will hire about 40 next year. I would not be surprised to see more. You need to follow the instructions on the web to apply. It helps to know someone who can recommend you but our chief pilot is such a _____ I don't suppose it really matters all that much.

I can't recommend the airline any more but maybe you will like it.

What about Horizon? I'd appreciate any info on them from those that work there or have been there...Just curious about them...

V/r,
LAFreq

Horizon
 

I spent a few years at Horizon. For the most part it is a depressing and life wasting dead end. I went there because an old Alaska Captain told me that "If I wanted to work for Alaska then I had better get on with Horizon". That was lesson number one, never listen to old Captains on how to get hired anywhere. The last time this guy had to look for work it was in the early 70's. I spent three years there and during that entire time 4 guys were hired from Horizon and 40 to 80 were hired from Skywest. The reality hit home one day when I was driving through town and saw a senior captain driving out from his trailer house in a mobile home park. The pay and opportunities are low. It takes around 8 years for a pilot to go through all the stages starting with denial and ending with acceptance. Almost everyone I have ever known who works there never was able to leave. The pilots there are depressed and sad every day. Upgrade is painfully slow. Currently it is between 5 and 7 years. I blame Horizon with killing my career.

Alaska Hire
 

Mike,

What happened to the expected 300-400 hires by this time? Years ago we were all told at Horizon that Alaska would have to hire hundreds a year by now inorder to replace retiring pilots? By my calculations you should be short by a few hundred pilots by now. What is the deal?

SkyHigh

Wow, Bitter Much? You need to get over it bro! Horizon is hireing a little. About 8 a month for the fall and spring. We do small classes. Horizon pilots are some of the highest paid in the country. We make more that Skywest and are MUCH more stable. Horizon may not be the fastest upgrade, but you are on solid ground. We fly under our own name, sell our own tickets and contract only a small number of RJ's to Frontier. What do you think will happen to Skywest when Delta goes BK? When UAL decides to change the contract? Are you willing to pin your hopes on DAL and UAL? That is what you do at Skywest. This is not bad, just risky. Horizon's bases are SEA PDX and DEN. Not to bad. Good pay. Strong contract. The pilot group is Great. We do have lot of senior pilots here, but why not. Make 100K a year and no commute? Not too shabby. Good thing you had a chance to leave the company. Mabey it was your attitude that was bringing down the moral around you!

Mahalo.

Dash trash is right, (he can't spell worth a damn) but he is right about the pay at Horizon. I think top pay is about 115/year. Not too bad for a RJ. Of course I think they should be making 250 but I am living a delusion. :D

As far as, "Where is the hiring?" I don't know. You see, "thinking weakens the team" and "I don't have the big picture." For these reasons I don't ask why anymore. I think we are woefully understaffed. Reserves are flying 80 per month fairly often and are being abused by schedulers. :eek: (IMO)

A working theory is that the company is still trying to hammer out a contract acceptable to the pilots (yeah right) and will staff more appropriately when they know the staffing levels needed. We'll see.

Horizon
 

Are you one of the latest hires? I am sure that to a CFI who just got on at Horizon then it would seem like a great place. However, I still know a lot of people who work there and I hear that much of the attrition is from people leaving in disgust. Besides I don't know what you have been reading but I am told that it takes 20 years to get to 115K. That is a long time to someone who is trying to start a family on 24K per year.
If flying anything is your goal and you don't mind being tired and ragged on your days off then Horizon is for you. The majority of the time you are there you will be earning less than poverty wages and 8 to 9 legs a day takes its toll. Yea I am bitter at Horizon, it is proof that I spent some time there. Everyone older than 25 is bitter and angry at the company. My take home pay was $450 every two weeks. We all grew old and depressed while pilots ot other companies passed us all by for Alaska Airlines. Horizon is a conseviative company. They will sit on the sidelines and watch others take on opportunity. Lets talk again in two years and we will see what you opinion is by then. The kicker is that if you leave within two years then you are black balled from Alaska, but then Alaska wouldn't hire you anyway since they were not hiring Hirizon pilots at the time. It was my biggest career mistake.


SkyHigh

Thanks for your inputs on horizon...i want a company that is forward thinking (even if they are a regional- business is business...to excel you need to lead / take risks not follow others...)...don't get me wrong - i don't want one thats flip about safety / FARs...


Did you find retired military at horizon? if so, what was their outlook on being there...

v/r,

I doubt Horizon pay will remain that high for much longer. 12 year + Alaska captains are making 154/hr flying anywhere from 140 to 172 seats and a Horizon RJ guy is making 115/hr flying 74 seats. Economy of scale bro, big brother will come for you. I have a lot of respect for Horizon and their pilots, but you must realize, the Horizon pay will not remain that high.

Alaska will hire 43 on this current bid with around the same more on the next bid in Jan. I would imagine 40 more this fall. It is still a good job and we will be around for some time.

Stay away from QX
 

Anyone considering Horizon should listen to SkyHigh. QX is a career killer. I have spent a painful 6 years at QX in the right seat. No one is happy, moral is in the toilet, and those great wages Dash Trash likes to talk about will be all but gone once the contract becomes amendable next year. Jet Blue is flying 100 seat RJs for 75/hr. you think Horizon is going to continue paying 115/hr for 70 seat RJs. I tell everyone that has been there less then 2 years to bail for skywest. I took that logic of skywest not being secure because of their contract flying...worse decision ever. Skywest is financially secure and not going anywhere.

SkyWest
 

PILOT - Professional Development Career Guide


To be considered for a Pilot position, you must meet the following requirements:



1,000 - hours total time
100 - hours multi engine


100 - hours instrument (Max 20 hours simulator)
Must be at least 21 years of age

All applicants will need a current first class medical (which will verified at your interview)
Must be a United States citizen or show proof of right to work in the US



SkyWest Minimum Requirements When Counting Helicopter or Glider Time
SkyWest Airlines recognizes the skills common to helicopter and glider flying. SkyWest will accept up to one hour of flight time for every two hours helo time. Not to exceed 250 hours of helicopter time.

Example:

750 hours fixed wing
500 hours helo
2 /500 = 250
750(fixed) + 250(helo) = 1000 hours total time



Please complete an on-line application before attending a Group Interview. To fill out an application on-line GO TO JOB OPENINGS and click on the group interview that you wish to attend. Bring a printed copy of the on-line application with you in order to participate in the Group Interview.


How will they verify at interview? Review papers or mini-physical?

V/r,
Cajuns Fan...

Horizon
 

Horizon does like retired military. They don't have to worry about earning a living. Ex-Military also are use to being pushed around by a supreme entity. Tehy do well at the factory.

SkyHigh

Keep Smoking the good stuff SkyHigh! I have been at QX for 7 years and make a very good living. I did put in my 5.5 yrs in the right seat of the Dash. IT IS A JOB MAN!!! If you are not happy today, you never will be. You Dumb Asses go chasing every lame upgrade, $ and Rj you can. I have seen WAY more of my friends chase Lakes, Mesaba, Air Whisky, now SkyWest right into the Furlough line. Skywest is doing Great. Good for them. REMEMBER, "companies like Skywest are not airlines anymore. They are in a much tougher business, which is selling capacity and crew time to major airlines. It's a segment of the industry that's already over-populated with players and with small jets. A culling of the herd is inevitable." SkyWest HAD to buy ASA to keep Delta out of BK. They know if Delta runs out of cash, They will be left out in the cold. " it's the equivalent of borrowing from the kids to make the house payment, in order to keep a roof over their heads."

Keep in mind where the info is comming from as well , "I may be a scab at heart. Do you expect me and my peers to sit on the sidelines and deny ourselfs to protect your position of privilage? Is that what we are supposed to do? " Posted By SkyHigh . I feel bad you lost your job and just look up at the sky at the rest of us. That was your choice my friend. You could get back in line at any time.

Bright Horizons?
 

Believe the "bitter boys". It may be hard to swallow but the reality is there is but a handfull of pilots making over 100K in a regional jet. All work and no pay make for a bad day.

Don't assume however that Horizon should take a pay cut just because others pay horribly. Let's try not to race to the bottom in pay. Keep your head up and don't have a defeatest attitude. We are professional and deserve to be paid like one. We are helping to keep our companies afloat. We will expect our pay to return to previous levels when profits return.

Fly safe

Dash Trash
 

If you are happy doing that job then good for you. I have a lot of friends who hired on with you and they are screaming and clawing at the walls to get out of there. Some people seem to like that job and that is great. Congradulations, you have reached your goal. I was 30 when I got hired there and was starting a family. It was obvious that there was no way I could do that on Horizon wages. Good companies don't have to use training contracts to keep their employees.

The needs and expectations of my generation are very diffrent from you guys. I'll bet that you are in your late 20's or early 30's. You have time to kill. By the time you reach 40 that pay check will seem a little slim and the dash a little cramped. Had I been hired in my lower 20's I am sure I would have a diffrent outlook. All the same, few people ever leave Horizon to go to the majors compared to other regionals. Almost everyone I have ever known who hired on there has never left. I took a chance leaving Horizon and lost. I do miss flying, but not for Horizon.

When I first started flying regionals didn't exsist. Horizon was a small commuter and the only job worth having was at the majors. I still think that way. Your generation looks to the regionals as a lifetime career. Good for you, someone has to do it. I have known pilots who left Horizon to be firefighters, work construction and sewer pump trucks drivers. My biggest gripe is that the pay is very much below what the general population earns, and in the end most of us have to make a living.

SkyHigh

DashTrash
 

I dont think sky high is smoking anything. If you have been at Horizon for 7 years and think that it is as good of place as you are describing you must be the one smoking something, or your last name is Hauggard or Hahn. Unless your out in Denver you are obviously in the minority of current pilots who think Horizon is the place to be. I am not saying that you should chase the RJ or the $ but the belief that it is great is the reason the next contract will be just as bad as the current one if not worse.

It will be if you vote yes.

How did this turn into a Horizon thread?

Alaska will be 44 this winter and about the same this spring. Best of luck.

The latest bid award (Sept 16) effective Jan 1, 2006 has about 45 new hire spots on it. Most are for LAX 737. Check the web site for info on how to apply. Generally they want West coasters, College, Non-smokers, 35-40 year olds with around 4000 hours and significant PIC.

How long has the average Horizon pilot been there? I'm guessing about 10 years. The junior capt was hired in 1999 (6 yr FO). Based on the 92hr guarantee, 2nd year FO($31) makes $34,224. That's pretty close to what the 'general population earns'. A 10 year Dash capt makes $69,552 and a 12 year CRJ capt makes $106K.

The average annual pay of all workers covered by state and federal
unemployment insurance (UI) programs rose by 2.5 percent to $36,214 in
2001, according to preliminary data released today by the Bureau of Labor
Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor.

It would appear that either the pay #'s on APC are wrong or you may need to reevaluate what you think 'a living is. I made a living as a $29K Deputy Sheriff and a 36K first year SWA FO but know some of my fellow $200K+ capt's that need to fly extra to meet their oblibations.

If you compare your pay to that of most CEO's, you will be disappointed but if you compare your pay to what the general population truley earns using real #'s, Horizon pay does't look so bad. It's all about perspctive.

You are certainly entitled to you opinion and I enjoy reading your posts as well as the other posters but your last statement was factually wrong.

Horizon Pay
 

You have done some research. However, I still disagree with you. I worked for Horizon as a line pilot and still have friends who work there as Captains. They report to me that as 7-8 year Captains they are making around 50-55. They all expect their pay to be cut at the next contract. If you take the math further most new hires at Horizon spent 2 to 7 years doing jobs they paid much less before they got to horizon. Besides that they are deeply in debt to college loans and flight school expenses. Therefore you really need to look at the whole picture. Everything these guys had to go through to make that 35K. Then compare it to a local new hire cop or firefighter. In the city that I lived in as a pilot for Horizon a new hire firefighter made 52K starting out and had opportunities to earn much more in overtime. The police earned close to the same. A police or fire new hire mostly had no college and no extra paid for training. The average age was between 20 and 25. In addition they will receive a full retirement after 20 years. It is a good deal and many Horizon Pilots have left to pursue those goals. I also have the benefit of owning a few rental homes and have been able to survey the population and am constantly stunned to discover what other people earn. A starting paramedic makes 36K his first day out of school and rapidly moves up to the mid 50's at least a full decade before the average Horizon pilot makes that much. Plus the paramedic has a retirement. By the time a poor Horizon pilot makes it to the left seat and has enough time to get hired by a good company he/she is in their lower to mid 40's. If they are lucky enough to have a family their kids are older and well established in the community. It is tuff to leave for a starting position at half the wages in a strange town. My point is that the efforts are not worth the results when looked at over time. If a person is dedicated and focused enough to make it through flight school, college and through the perilous years as a CFI or freight dog then they could have done many other things that have a much better return. By the time our Horizon hero is starting to make some good money he/she has jumped into a tax bracket that allows the government to take a large chunk of it at the same time someone who went to the fire department is looking at retirement. In closing there are a few guys in my home town who lay tile for a living and they average between 85 and 120K per year. No college debt no training costs, just cash. They are usually sitting in the back of the Dash 8 on their way to their second vacation of the year while the guys in front are trying to choke down a sack lunch.


SkyHigh

Just like your first post that I replied to I agree to with most of what you said and it makes for good debate as it is our opinions that we are exchanging. Once again though you throw in a line that just doesn't make sense. I'll ask you again, and any other Horizon pilot on this forum...is the payscale and garauntee listed here on APC wrong?
If the most junior captain was hired in '99, a "full decade" later he'd be a 10 year DH8 capt. $63 X 92hr X 12mo = $69,552
The most junior capt was hired in AUG '99 and therefor just started his 7th year for pay, so in his 7th year he'll be in the mid 60's ($58x92hrx12mo=$64k)(end of factual dispute......opinion to follow)
My brother is a fireman and does quite well. And yes he has a very lucrative retirement package. Retirement in the private sector is a thing of the past though. There is another thread here that states DAL may not send out 3500 retirement checks this month. UAL & USAir have screwed their current and former emloyees and DAL & NWA are doing it now. I'm glad that I don't have a company pension plan as we have seen that it is at risk of being taken away, I own my 401k, and IRA's, not the company. When I was an FO, I used to tell my brother that he had the third best job in the world and that I had the second. He say 'oh yah, who's got the best' and I'd say 'my captain'. He would disagree since he didn't care anything about flying. We both work about 11 days/mo but I make 3x as much. He wouldn't want my job though, he loves his at .30c on the dollar. My point being is, either do something you love or go work for as much money as you can and 'buy' things that will make you happy. If it's the pensions and retirement that you are covetting, then go get a federal gov't job (those pensions are secure as they'll just raise our taxes to cover them). I recently read somewhere that the average Air Traffic Controller now makes more than the average Airline Pilot. I think the #'s were something like $103k vs. $89k (who would have thunk?) I'll be listening for you on the radio :D

SWAcapt

Horizon has a 35 day bid period with that 92hrs guarantee. That comes out to be just over 10 bid periods per year.

Most Jr capt. (7yr DH8 Capt)
$58 * 92 * 10 = $53,360

10 Yr DH8 Capt
$63 * 92 * 10 = $57,960

Making a living
 

SWA,

All I wished to do was to have a career that I enjoyed that would help me build a family and fulfill my responsibilities. As pointed out by an earlier post Horizon has a strange bid system. The pay is around 50-56K for a Dash 8 Capt and it takes ten years and around 150K to get there. The model works if one were to get on with a major airline in their late 20's or early 30's. I don't believe that flying for Horizon is a reasonible risk for ones fanancial future. I have often wondered if I had taken all the money I ever spent on aviation and invested it in real estate I would be much better off. Doing what you love is great but in the end we all need to make a living. I wish I was at SWA or ALaska Air, but it isnt in the cards for the majority of us.


SkyHigh

Thanks for the response, apparently the scales are correct but don't include the amount of bid periods. I will message APC and see if we can get these included.

Sky, You are right. As I said in a previous post, I do not contest your opinion. I am just one of those hyper-accurate (anal-retentive) pilots and the #'s just weren't working. It appears that the 10 bid period was the problem. Perhaps APC will be able to include the # of bid periods on their airline pages. The best to you in whatever you do.

retirements
 

Well, this is a great, uplifting thread. So I should get back on active duty, and pass gas over one of them -stan countries and eat a bigger box lunch... and get a good retirement? Anyone one know how to get on with DEA, FBI, Customs or ICE?

Shamu
 

Go back on acitve duty, or hire on directly with a major airline.

SkyHigh

I would suggest using more data points than just this thread before making career decisions. If you need me to pay for your retirement, then yes, the Federal Gov't is the way to go. They will never go bankrupt as long as those of us in the private sector are paying taxes. I am fully able to take care of myself. I fund my own retirement as SWA has no company retirement.
Some are displeased with there jobs/careers/ lives ets. I am on the other end of the spectum though. All is great. I would not have dreamed of doing anything other than aviation. Life is what you make of it...no body owes you anything. Shoot for the stars...the moon ain't a bad consolation prize. Hope the following links are helpful. Oh, don't forget about Air Traffic Control (+/- $100k, +retirement)

DEA
http://www.dea.gov/job/agent/page-01.htm
FBI
http://www.fbi.gov/employment/faq.htm
ICE
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/new...rest031705.htm

I'm staying on active duty and retiring. Not because I need someone to fund my retirement - I don't. I've got plenty put away in mutual funds / Roth IRA. I can get a job in corporate america next week if I wanted... I encourage all military to put away additional money to supplement their retirement.

I joined / staying in the military because I like the work and leadership. It also pays well and my QOL is excellent. I only wish I could have gotten into UPT...I was too old by the time I commissioned to fly. I did apply for it w/ age waivers but was not accepted...I even applied to to be a WSO/EWO on F-15E / B-52s but didn't get picked-up for that program either...No problem - I'm glad I'm in the AF doing what I love- leading some of the finest men/women in our country...

There is nothing wrong with a military career (enlisted or officer)...Its a noble profession and my military brothers / sisters earn their pay everyday... They deserve the retirement / benefits owed them.

v/r,

Amen, brother! I thank you for your service and dedication. I retired last year.(8act./12res.) You may have misunderstood my post. I'm sure you did not go into the AF for the sole purpose of achieving a retirement. I'm guessing that if you're anything like me, duty to country, service, challenge, excitement were probably your motivators and not money/retirement benies. Thanks for 'standing on the wall', we all sleep better at night for it. ;)

No problem..I just wish i could have gotten commissioned a few years earlier- needed an age waiver for UPT...even with one i didn't get picked up for UTP or nav/eso/wso training.Oh well, i'll just enjoy life as a support officer...:-) life is still good...

V/r

You are right, they do like former military.
Because??? They are experienced, well grounded and professional while
flying. Not to mention, good sticks for the most part and easier to train.
They (WE) know what to expect and generally have a better knowledge
of systems. This is just because in addition to everything you need to know
about your aircraft. You have multiple weapons systems that are not just
critical to your life, but perhaps the ground pounders that need your assistance in there time of need. Have you ever dropped a MK-82 within
50 meters of a company of Marines without a loss. (On our side)

Former military are used to being pushed around. It's called following orders
and being a disciplined individual regardless of rank. And as you would say
"Tehy do well at the factory". It should be stated as.........
"We do very well at the factory".
Just ask anyone that works at Federal Express, you could call this a factory.
But did you know that Federal Express has a do not furlough clause.
For all employee's. Thank Fred Smith,the CEO. A former Marine Aviator.
He started a small business with DA-20's(Falcons)that led into the creation
of the Challenger. Thanks to deregulation in 1978. He was able to start
something with older 727-100 series aircraft that everyone said was just non-sense. However when Federal Express went to convert the older 727's they
found things that were not ever suppose to wear out. But they did.
This is why you still see 727's flying in the sky's of our great country.

Just as a jester, not a slam; you might consider looking at the top 100
Fortune companies. Look at the history of the present and past CEO's,COO's,
and CFO's.

If you decide to take a peek at the major big business' that have gone under in the last couple years. Enron,Tyco. There leaders have no military background. Nor does their lower mgt.

So don't ask me why I'm at regional flying a CL-65. I'll tell you.
I'm retired miltary. Doing O.K. I have frickin earned it.
I have seen and done more putang than you or your friends can count
on all didgets.

But the best thing I can ever say that I have done is; this?
I have really enjoyed my career, both military and civilian.

Just having a good overnight with great food and drink

[IMG][/IMG]

BZ Snake, Semper Fi! ;)

I second that BZ!

Snake - your real name isn't Bull Meechum is it?

:-)


V/r,
Cajun's Fan..

"I've recently observed that for certain throwbacks of the species, for certain gung ho dinosaurs, of which I proudly number myself as one, being a warrior without a war has its problems."

Marines
 

God I love marines... I'm holding my beer high to all of the guys who slept in the sand and loved it. I prefer the Royal Alokai, Hale Koa and the Orchid, but I'm just a spoiled, fat Air Force Reservist.

Um... Semper Fi

Jetsnake
 

Military

Dear Jetsnake,

My wish was not to offend and am sorry if I did so. My intent was to explain how those with a military past and military tendencies do well in a structured and closely directed environment. Not everyone can exceed under such circumstances. I agree that most companies are staffed by CEO's with a military past however I would like to point out that most companies and organizations are started by free thinkers and those with more of an open mind and self directed nature. Many pilots who came to Horizon from a single pilot night freight or Alaska bush pilot background are repelled by the strict Horizon Air system. Joiners and boy scouts not only survive the beatings but are inspired by the strong discipline and order. Sorry again if I upset anyone. I like the military and military people.

SkyHigh

SkyHigh no like Horizon, we got it...
 

"...lesson number one, never listen to old Captains on how to get hired anywhere."

Lesson number two: "Pay even less attention to people who don't even work at the carrier in question!"